Chris Warzynski is an actor, writer, and designer specializing in sound, lighting, and photography for theater. We discuss finding a career after college, the differences between formal credential versus real-world experience, how smart John Cena really is, and the history of live entertainment.
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Chapters
00:00 Start
8:06 The Actor's Upbringing
11:53 Martial Arts Journey
15:20 Theater Beginnings
17:33 Exploring Shakespeare
22:21 Wrestling Storytelling
49:53 DDP and Yoga
58:31 Discovering Passion for Acting
1:00:30 Jack of All Trades
1:13:48 The Challenges of Large Teams
1:24:44 The Weight of Responsibility
1:45:00 Negotiating Your Worth
Transcript
Music:
[0:00] Music
Chris:
[0:32] It's going well. I did take a shower. I did eat breakfast, which is,
Chris:
[0:37] I think, a majority of the battle, maybe 90% of the day.
Tyler:
[0:41] Is that something that you like? Do you win that battle often, the breakfast and shower and the morning battle?
Chris:
[0:48] I mean, typically. Typically, I'm very much a workaholic. Yeah. yeah i mean typically i have a whole thing there but i recently just graduated from college so now i'm kind of in a low period you know trying to get the job so thank you thank you i appreciate it i mean you're.
Tyler:
[1:12] Not so you're leagues ahead of me i've never eat breakfast and i did not graduate from college so you're like way ahead of me already i'm so proud of you
Chris:
[1:22] Well i i appreciate it that's you know that's at like one percent one percent better that's crazy.
Tyler:
[1:30] As a college graduate who's now looking for work i have to ask was it worth the four years of college um just
Chris:
[1:41] Well for me for me it was uh okay because i mean the the entertainment industry as a whole, I think, is very secretive. I was just talking with an advertising guy, and he was like, no, advertising is really easy. You do this, you know, there's a step-by-step process. You get through journalism or advertising, and then you go and you do $150,000 portfolio school, and then you get a job. And I think as an actor or a designer or someone in the entertainment industry you know as a as a high school student no one wants to tell you anything everyone just wants to uh keep keep things to themselves act like there's a job scarcity when there really isn't so um i i am very much a overachiever type person so i was able to quickly you know gain scholarships at my university and and learn a lot and do a lot of things and even though i don't have a job right now, I think that will change very soon.
Tyler:
[2:48] No, that's cool. Like, I hated school, so when I started thinking about going to more school, it was a pretty easy no for me. I remember the day, I guess it was my senior year of high school, where they're like, all right, everybody's going to go take the ACT and SAT today and all that shit. I just told my teacher, I am not going. And he's like, you have to. I'm like, I literally don't. Like I'm well within my rights to not get up and walk and get on a bus and go take this test. And I'll never, I don't hate this guy, but I have, I've like put him in my Rolodex of like people who said I would fail at life. And then like when I'm a millionaire, giving them a call just to let them know like you were wrong. But he was like, you're just going to be a flunky for the rest of your life, Mr. Crabtree. And he was wrong. I did. Okay. I didn't have to take this.
Tyler:
[3:48] It turns out you can in fact after you get out of like high school like and work for a while if you want to go back to college they don't care about that unless you're trying to get into like some specific program or whatever um but i was i needed to be in the military i needed like discipline not free like if you'd given me the freedom of just go to school but no one's gonna make you be here i would have just fucked the whole thing up and wasted a bunch of my parents money and uh right right well
Chris:
[4:18] In high school it's it's crazy you know they they um in high school i mean where i'm the biggest high school in south carolina at the time 4 000 students, um and they were all about oh you have to take these ap courses you should be taking you know dual enroll you know all these things and then i actually you know they don't, you need a 5.0 GPA if you want to, you know, even look approachable. Um, and then I got, you know, I went to a backup school and it just quickly, like I was talking with valedictorians from schools with 30 kids, you know, and all of a sudden, like the, I mean, within the first week of being in college, I'm sure it was similar, um, in the military, you know, you kind of just grow up and your whole view of the world, I mean, just kind of gets so much bigger and you realize like, oh shit. I mean, that's, I mean, that's what I felt.
Tyler:
[5:20] I, yeah, I just... I looked around at like what my options were at the time. And don't get me wrong. I was like a reasonably intelligent kid. I had a lot of pressure on me to go to college, like from elementary school.
Tyler:
[5:35] I was in like the Duke tip program and all kinds of shit when I was like eight or nine, I don't know. And all kinds of stuff. And I always had like people in my ear saying like, you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer or a scientist or an engineer or a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Tyler:
[5:49] And I was more of an artist type person. And, yeah, i i took an honest look at career paths you know at i don't know 17 or 18 or whatever and all of my favorite like people i looked up to had gone into the military and then gone on to be a famous artist i'm talking like maynard from tool johnny cash like elvet like just right they also all did lots of drugs and fucked their lives up which you know hey um but i'm just like it just seemed like like this is a good thing to do if you are going to go on to do something else that isn't conventional at least you have that stability and yeah and then I didn't even join the military until I was like 20 years old I just worked like regular jobs for two years which I recommend to all people when they're young like get like just get some like actual work experience so you'll appreciate having a white collar job or at least a desk faring job if you go do like manual labor or some shit for a while first and yeah and you'll appreciate like
Tyler:
[6:57] The difference between a minimum wage gig and like even at, at the time, you know, minimum wage, like seven 25. So it's crazy now. Like when I think like people are like refusing to work at McDonald's for $15 or whatever, which I mean, I'm all for get paid wherever the fuck you can, but I'm just saying like literally more than twice as much as it was when I was like 16.
Chris:
[7:19] So when I started at, at the scene shop, um, at my college, uh, it was seven 25. But it's still like they had not updated their minimum wage, I guess. I guess when you pay students, now it's much different. They start students at $9. But we started at $7.25. And I mean, that's, I mean, we did, you know, we were carpenters, you know, moving lumber all day, working on sets for shows and, you know, all the good carpentry and hard labor stuff to make a production happen. And we were like, dang, man, I'm not working that much and I'm only getting $7.25, but I love it. I love it. It's so good.
Tyler:
[8:06] So, I mean, like, what was your kind of upbringing? Like, what puts you on the path of like, I'm going to go study acting or all this other stagecraft and everything that you've done so far?
Chris:
[8:18] Right, so when I was a kid, I was really raised by my grandparents Hell yeah My mom left me when I was about 12, My grandpa was a physicist So at his university, his alma mater, he taught there, he got his PhD there But he ended up working for the government as air traffic controller uh and my my grandma was in a similar kind of contract field um a lot of the jeeps um that were kind of used in the iraq war um in the kind of 2000s era um post 9-11 she was in charge of like getting the contracts for those jeeps and for the outfitting the modifications of those jeeps um and so i kind of looked at them and i was like man i should be a physicist And then I started drawing a lot and I went under the apprenticeship of a draftsman in town and that was around, that was like elementary school. So I spent a couple of years working that and I did, you know, karate.
Tyler:
[9:35] That sounded like some like. I went under the apprenticeship of a draftsman. Sounds like you're from a different century. So for the layman. Well, I think, I think apprenticeships are really cool. I want the world to revert to the guild system. Like I'm having this, like I'm having these conversations early about my kid and with my wife, like how I think the world ought to be or whatever. But like, so what, first of all, what was, what is a draftsman? And what was the process of the apprenticeship? like to become a draftsman
Chris:
[10:11] No i was it was very simple um uh and it was like lessons to apprenticeship so it's very kind of modern thing i he he's a there was a guy in town he was an illustrator um animator draftsman meaning you know architectural design um on pen and paper plus cad stuff um so computer aided you know 3d modeling and all that um and uh And I started doing lessons under him, and then I just kept doing lessons, and some of my works that I would do, and I really only did value-based drawings. So draftsmen will render for architecture firms, this is old stuff, everything's computer-aided now, but back in the day people would have giant drafts tables and they would draft their cars and all of their designs in black and white and then plate them out for the actual technical guys to go out and execute their stuff. So when I was in I don't know ninth grade no not even ninth when I was like.
Chris:
[11:26] Fifth grade even um i started working with this guy um and he featured me in a couple galleries and stuff and that was really cool but then i was like okay you know i want to do karate, so i did karate how.
Tyler:
[11:41] Old were you when that transition took place
Chris:
[11:43] Um probably 10 maybe maybe maybe even around the same time you know maybe you know eight or nine.
Tyler:
[11:53] That's an odd age to have in a apprenticeship but a good age to start martial arts like i think yeah yeah yeah
Chris:
[12:00] And then i did that for three years and i almost got black belt and then what.
Tyler:
[12:06] Style of karate did you do
Chris:
[12:07] Uh uh wateroo um which is kind of in the shotokan range but one time i i met a wateroo guy like on the street for no reason like there was just a guy in a gi, um which is you know the karate get up and i saw him in the uniform and i said hey man what do you practice and he said oh wateroo i was like yeah i love wateroo you know i practiced shodokan karate you know for so long and he was like wateroo is not shodokan it is absolutely not and i was like okay okay.
Tyler:
[12:36] I was a shodokan karate practitioner as a teenager too so i i do not have like i have a healthy respect for all forms of martial arts in one way or another, but like, I mean, were you learning to break people's arms and knees backwards and stuff?
Chris:
[12:55] No, Wateroo is all Qatar, you know, simple sets. And then, but we did have a guy who would do that shit.
Tyler:
[13:05] I mean, that's like the whole mantra of Shotokan for, you know, all the nerds out there. It's like every move you make is a break. Every single move you do you're supposed to be like physically breaking an arm or leg or a knockout like every punch is supposed to be a knockout every block is a simultaneous like snap backwards of an elbow it's a little bit pretentious because in practicality it's kind of like I understand why you want to do this but if you just do your kata and you fucking walk out into the real world expecting to be a lethal weapon um the actually the the knockout game really isn't bad like if you just put all of your energy into one solid punch straight to the noggin that's that's a good practice you get tired quickly too but yeah that's awesome it's actually a cool thing that you started when you were 10 you did it for three years yeah
Chris:
[14:00] And i almost got black belt i was on like the last test before black but um wateroo is actually very similar uh but they they the way i was taught was that everything is like a kill strike even your most basic block is is uh, in the adventation of killing someone you know everything.
Tyler:
[14:22] You do should be
Chris:
[14:23] Yeah ideally.
Tyler:
[14:25] To incapacitate one person sure so like when you go i'm not on camera but you know you go to do just like a basic block it's a two-handed motion so that you are that person doesn't get back up again like it's supposed to be like a bruce lee movie every single fucking thing um okay
Chris:
[14:43] Yeah and we would take days where we would just sit there and be like okay think of your very first katah you learned the very first day of water root training i want you to imagine for an hour all the ways you could kill someone with just that first move and i was like bro i'm 11 and i was it was pretty and i was like i'm teaching four-year-olds this shit uh um anyway it was so that so that was fun but But then in kind of my last months before Blackbell, I really started doing theater.
Chris:
[15:21] And the first show I ever auditioned for, I got the lead role where I had like a five minute monologue and I didn't realize you were supposed to memorize your lines. So it was like two weeks to the show and I was like, where's the cue cards, guys? And they were like, no, no cue cards. I was like, it's not like SNL. And they were like, no, no. Um, so, yeah.
Tyler:
[15:45] What was the first play you did?
Chris:
[15:49] It was, so I did it in eighth grade, and in the kind of theater world, there is a bunch of works. A huge deal is licensing. So if you want to do like a real play that won a Pulitzer or something, you're going to be paying close to $300 just to do one performance. So a lot of low budget, you know, educational companies, they will go to the educational publishers and they'll let you do it for like 25 bucks a performance. The shows are really bad so i we we did a show called hoodie and it was all about you know.
Chris:
[16:38] Puberty i mean there was a whole scene where a guy's supposed to come out and under his shirt is supposed to be a giant you know rectangular box of cardboard and he comes into school and he's like guys what's up guys and everyone's like you look like a fucking piece of cardboard and he's like oh uh you know things are changing anyway um so so that was kind of the gist of that play um and so i had a very you know i i would say i was the lead role in that and then um as i got into high school and i started doing all these student film projects and, you know, being leads in all the plays and everything. It was just, before I had a car, it was impossible to go and do Waterloo. So I kind of stopped my training at that.
Tyler:
[17:33] That's okay it's just it's just like a crazy like twists and turns but i think that's good when you're like a teenager is like when you just try a bunch of different shit see what sticks the the first play i was ever in i think i was i was in the third grade and i was in like a i don't know if they had it in south carolina we had a program called pace we're just like basically every thursday anybody over like 120 iq got shipped to a different school for special ed literally they're like yeah we don't want you in here mucking up the regular kids good day so you're all you nerds are gonna go to like a different school and like take a special class on every you know every week or whatever and so like part of the program was like we had to like every year write and perform our own play and then like compete with all the other classes in the state um so we did Helen of Troy um okay yeah which was I mean basically like a shortened version of the Iliad and Odyssey or whatever but a third graders performance of that and I played Hector like who's in the story like the giant that Achilles is able to just like knock down in a single blow or whatever but yeah it was fun I had and I kept doing that through elementary i really liked theater like i was like super into it but then there was no
Tyler:
[18:59] Program really for that in middle and high school so it just kind of like went by the wayside but yeah i kind of wish i had been more exposed to that kind of stuff as a kid
Chris:
[19:13] I think a lot of kids deserve to be exposed to it. In South Carolina, in my county, Charleston County, we had what was called SAIL, which was very similar to PACE, you know, all these stupid ass acronyms. And yeah, once a week you would go off and we would have to do intricate, you know, anatomical drawings of sea creatures and shit. You know, we would eat squid and yeah, which was, I think it was good that I did it. I think it's, you know, we could get into the politics and the racism of, of those programs, I think. Um, you know, I think it's weird that most of those programs have only white kids. Um, but, uh, at least where I came from, there was kind of a obvious thing. But anyway, um, yeah, so I, I mean, I've, uh, later in my career, kind of a year ago, um, I went on a big Shakespeare tour, um, to a bunch of really low, you know, almost no funding, or they didn't even have a theater program, middle, elementary, and high schools. And we just did a quick Shakespeare show and it really, the goal of it was not to be Shakespeare the goal of it was to take Shakespeare's words, and make it fun for kids you know and make it weird so I would crawl through the audience and stuff while I was trying to be Romeo looking for Juliet and stuff you know we would we would do crazy stuff.
Tyler:
[20:40] I think Romeo and Juliet is a really heavy play for kids to do they
Chris:
[20:44] Shouldn't read it.
Tyler:
[20:46] Honestly like it's such a classic and it's always it's even like represented in cartoons and everything and i'm not against romeo and juliet but i mean like uh a romance about a young couple that ends in a double fucking suicide well you know like that it just gives me the wrong impression of like what we shouldn't be teaching this teenagers especially are like too vulnerable to this
Chris:
[21:10] Well, for me, it's how deep the literary stuff goes, because the play starts off by talking about star-crossed lovers. And then through like every monologue, like Romeo has a big, big, huge monologue where he's talking about a Juliet on the balcony. And when you're a kid and read it, you're like, oh, he's just talking about Juliet. But as I re, you know, analyzed it, I realized that he is taking the William Shakespeare took the metaphor of like stars and lovers to the nth degree. Like he was like, OK, the he's talking about if Juliet's eyes were inside two stars and two stars were inside Juliet's eyes, there would be no sun because Juliet's eyes would be so beautiful. And bright that they would light up the world on their own and it's like that that is a metaphor that I don't even think the English teachers you know give a shit about you know so I.
Tyler:
[22:16] Mean it's it's beautiful and all that but it's also like.
Tyler:
[22:21] I mean, it is a tragedy, but it's really unhealthy, I think, for a teenage boy or girl to, like, be thinking in those terms. Like, it's too much. Like, you have a whole life ahead of your kids. It's going to be lots of these girls. There's going to be lots of girls that you think eyes could light up the whole room and all that shit, and then you realize she's a psycho. Right, right. Yeah.
Chris:
[22:45] Well, I think the good thing is that most people, most teachers teach it so terribly that a lot of the kids who would be affected, I think, by the themes, they just, you know, shoo it off. Who gives a shit? It's just Romeo and Juliet. I know. They kill themselves. Who cares?
Tyler:
[23:03] Yeah. So, but you were like going through, did you do a lot of different Shakespeare stuff or was that just kind of like a one-off?
Chris:
[23:13] So for that show, in general, I have done several Shakespeare shows, but for that show, teaching it to kids, it was more about story. So there is a book, I'm blanking on the name right now, but there's so many books, you know, Save the Cat. It's a huge storybook, but there was a book and it gave a structure that's really easy to follow for every single story that you could break down. It's like, once upon a time, there was a blank. Every day, that blank did blank until blank. From then on, blank had to do this, then this blank, then this blank. And ever since then, blank felt different. It was that kind of structure. So what we would do is we'd bring a whiteboard and we would write out the structure and we would ask kids their favorite Disney movie. And then we would act out their Disney movie like real fast. Like once upon a time, you know, Nemo was a fish, you know, whatever. And then, excuse me, we would go and show them Shakespeare stories that were similar. So almost every Shakespeare uses like the same basic Greek stuff.
Chris:
[24:31] So we did Two Gentlemen of Verona. We did Midsummer Night's Dream, Romeo and Juliet, and Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet is just the Greek story of Pyramus and Thisbe, which Pyramus and Thisbe is a play in a play inside of Midsummer Night's Dream. And then the main themes there are repeated in Two Gentlemen of Verona. So you see there already four of the plays that we have picked are basically telling the same story four different times. So we, I mean, and I don't even know if the kids got this, but it was just kind of trying to show like.
Chris:
[25:09] It's not every story is the same guys it's just how you tell it um so i and the kids typically liked it i mean we were really lighthearted and and that stuff so i think it was a good tour it was it was fun we got to go to like 10 different schools all around south carolina um and yeah and we would do workshops afterwards and you know q a's and the kids were always really interested And after seeing how crazy we were being, a lot of kids who, you know, maybe were jocks or maybe were, you know, kind of like you were saying, the goth kid didn't want to ever go. You know, all these kids in these workshops, you know, started to really open up, which was really, that was really awesome to see.
Tyler:
[25:55] Yeah it was it was interesting because i think i did it so early that like a lot of the people who really liked it as kids then went on to you know go into their high school factions of like this is cool this is not cool and then it's like a weird weird kind of transition whereas like i think the you know the stereotypical kind of redemption story is like i don't know the the football guy who realizes he's vulnerable and wants to be a performer or whatever in life you know but his dad doesn't like it you know that's a that's a whole stereotype in its own but yeah it's i think it's cool to learn shakespeare young though because then you sort of see it everywhere like you can't i mean you can't watch any movie without like oh this is just that this is just hamlet this is just macbeth this is just othello this is i don't know king lear and it's just never ending kind of thing but all all of those archetype archetypes of the different stories that were told do find their way back to the ancient greek theater it's something i wish i'd studied more i i got really into that like the history of ancient greece podcast and they went on and on and on about you know the how important the theater was to society at large for ancient Greece. And that tradition just seemed to hold true.
Chris:
[27:14] The coolest part is that, the Greeks and the Romans, we have like 30% of their plays, not even. Almost all of their plays, every single year, they did a festival where they showed like 20 plays. We only have the winners of like four years you know so i mean that's like taking okay that's like saying 2 000 years from now we're gonna show people moonlight uh titanic and star wars and that's what they're gonna think of like our civilization and they're gonna be like huh.
Tyler:
[28:00] I really love the archetypical theater. As you are well aware, I'm a huge pro wrestling nerd, and it's the same fucking thing. It's just taking everything, every story you could possibly tell, and then just telling it in the context of a four-sided wrestling ring. But you keep recycling the same things over and over and over again. And it's always going to be like good versus evil or like betrayal and and you and it could be just ideally you can tell an entire story you know in 10 minutes in a wrestling match that you could otherwise you know would have to write an entire play to do um and some people are like genuinely really thoughtful about that like if you go and watch some of the the even the trashier wwe stuff like it's clear that the writers were like okay this is an opportunity to tell that story like let's let's go for this and then in the the serial of it when they have time to like build it up you know do it over and over and over again or or like take two characters and like give give the bad guy the ability to just drag it on forever so that you have this big burst of emotion when the good guy finally wins um it's it's really really cool to see like the different ways that people
Tyler:
[29:30] And like will interpret these stories and not on the surface at least recognize that it's just the same drama that they've seen before um and back you know in the old days when they were like genuinely like living by carny rules and everyone had to pretend it was 100% real and like kick someone's ass if they'd imply that it wasn't and all that stuff you know they had the territories and they would they would like you and me would have a match that we did in charleston and then the next week we'd be in atlanta and the next week we'd be in florida somewhere in like jacksonville or whatever and the next week we'd be in montgomery and we would do exactly the same thing we did wherever we were until we had it perfected and then record it for tv and then rinse and repeat right and like the the sort of like traveling theater lifestyle of it is really interesting and that's all just directly you know tied to the i don't know the mummer's lifestyle of like you know not ancient europe but medieval europe And then the renaissance and all that stuff too.
Chris:
[30:39] I don't think enough people, especially wrestling. I mean, I've, I have only gotten into wrestling huge over the past year, but I've gotten really deep. And I think exactly what you're saying. It almost, I mean, all of these lifestyles, you know, traveling musician, traveling, you know, wrestler, traveling actor can be taken
Chris:
[31:01] all the way back as, as you're saying to this kind of dark ages. Um european traveling theater mindset where they bring they bring the set the set is on a rolling cart the rolling cart folds open and they give a show in 10 minutes and it's it's um you know at the beginning of the show they tell you the entirety of the show and then you figure out if as an audience member you want to sit there for the next 10 to 20 minutes um and and all of that stuff is is you know i mean wrestling especially i think it it's kind of obvious that there's so many amazing athletes and in you know wwe but uh why do we all love the old guys who are kind of failing at being athletes because they're such great storytellers why do i love cm punk he's amazing on the mic and when he gets into the ring he tells a story in five minutes ten minutes an hour you know and.
Tyler:
[31:59] He's he's not a particularly amazing athlete by any stretch of the imagination no he was my hero as a teenager like When I was 16, CM Punk could have ran my mother over with a car and I would have collapsed. Like, huge fan. I had my hair dyed blonde like he did when he was in Ring of Honor. The first day of wrestling training, I showed up, and then the dude just looks at me and he's like, yeah, you're one of those CM Punk marks. There's another one of you over there. You guys can be a tag team. And I'm so into him. But yes, because he's an amazing storyteller. Like same same thing with uh i mean stone cold steve austin was an incredible athlete but he was injured and then he had to like kind of compromise his style to make up for that but he made up for it with all of the elaborate storytelling that he did the rock uh yeah horrendous wrestler like terrible terrible wrestler but he had some great matches because like the storytelling part of it was really big but i mean like ask the dude to do a fucking regular arm dragon or just throw a punch he looks like jelly and no one cares uh
Chris:
[33:12] I mean i think we're seeing that right now.
Tyler:
[33:15] Yeah go
Chris:
[33:16] Go ahead go ahead.
Tyler:
[33:17] There's this old mantra and i think this applies to more than just wrestling it's to like any performance field at all but they would rate people on a 30 point system i think brett hart came up with this okay where it's like you get 10 points for charisma 10 points for your look and 10 points for your in-ring ability like technical ability whatever that is and then you get you get ranked somewhere out of 30 and like hulk hogan was a solid 20 and that's all it took he was hadn't he looked incredible he talked incredible
Tyler:
[33:56] And he couldn't wrestle his way out of a fucking wet paper bag. That didn't matter as long as, you know, you had someone who could work with him.
Tyler:
[34:04] And the same thing applies to a lot of the great guys. Like John Cena, like to give him his due is like a five on the charisma scale, in my opinion. I think he's a, he looks tremendous. I mean, obviously he looks amazing. And he can't wrestle worth the fuck unless he's with a great technical wrestler and then they can really like bring something out of him but like for a long time he was kind of just stuck in that rut of like doing the same literally the same five move combo and i mean you know when you know you see him do the shoulder tackle and then the second shoulder tackle and then the spin out power bomb and then the look around and the five knuckle shuffle and all that shit and then you know the attitude adjustments come in and like part of that is what's so amazing about wrestling is that you like think about how stupid a five knuckle shuffle is or people's elbow but the crowd is going fucking ape shit crazy and it's like a pavlovian response like you may not realize it but the moment you see the first shoulder tackle out of the rest of that move combo you're already
Tyler:
[35:16] Getting juiced up for it and those that's like the fundamental thing about wrestling like when you start really like learning it learning it if you have someone who's a good trainer that that's the first thing they want to talk about it's like you have to can you literally just have to like ring a bell and get them to salivate that's what you want and all of the great people
Tyler:
[35:39] All of i shouldn't say the greatest all of the people who are like really big stars have something like that randy orton is another example where he he does about seven moves and all seven of his moves look fantastic but if you ask him to do something that's not in that routine it's probably not gonna happen yeah
Chris:
[35:57] Yeah totally i mean that's that's what i was gonna say earlier is cena like current Cena right now. Backlash.
Tyler:
[36:04] Oh my God.
Chris:
[36:06] Did you like Backlash 25?
Tyler:
[36:08] Why not? It was amazing.
Chris:
[36:10] Well, I, okay, I loved Orton, right? The minute he started, you know, giving the cutter to every single person, you know, all the, it was fantastic. But Cena still, I mean, he did like 10 attitude adjustments in that match. I mean, he really, all he can do now, He is so like Old All he can do is Attitude adjustments Five knuckle shuffles And shoulder tackles Those are his Three only moves You know.
Tyler:
[36:43] I assure you that, like, let's just say he was in the ring with Bryan Danielson or Punk or someone like that.
Chris:
[36:50] Yeah.
Tyler:
[36:51] He would do a lot more because they would pull more out of him. But also, this is just my analysis. I'm a real fucking nerd about this stuff. So just tell me to shut up if I get to be too much. But he's doing that on purpose. Like, he knows you think that. They know you think that.
Tyler:
[37:12] And he's a heel and the best way to get you to hate him because there's like so many different layers of the heel baby face spectrum in order for him to truly get you to hate him he's got to break the fourth wall of hatred so you don't hate him because you think he's genuinely evil you're an adult you know he's not Santa Claus but if you know he's being lazy now you hate him worse and that's been going on for 15 years i think where he would he would openly mock the fact that the crowd made fun of him for not doing a lot of movies like you want to do you want to see me do a hurricane rana or whatever like and he would land on his head doing the hurricane rana's like i don't doubt he could do it but he knows that you'll get pissed off if you see him like fuck it up um so like now with this this john
Tyler:
[38:08] Cena heel run is the greatest thing that has happened to me other than the birth of my child in a long long time wow i thought i was gonna soak my pants when he like when i when when he he and the rock made eye contact and i knew it was gonna happen i'm like yeah there there is a god like they're like this is the best thing since fucking sliced spread man my wife didn't understand what was happening when i reacted to it and i was like running around my living room like a fucking stupid imbecile like yeah he's gonna turn evil
Tyler:
[38:43] Finally i've been begging for like go back to like 2013 or some shit when he and punk were feuding and it was just like why won't he do something other than just this and it all built up to that moment so in a way they played us for 20 years like they had they had me on the on the wall won't john see in a turn bed so even though i'm supposed to hate him now this is the best thing i've ever seen him do and i i'm watching him do the same things you're talking about but when i'm seeing him do it i'm like oh that's so smart oh what a genius it might not it could not even be that well thought out but like i see i see him like get like go to lock up and then just not do anything and roll out of the ring and just waste time for five minutes and not even wrestle. And I'm like, genius. Oh man. He's so, he's so good at getting me to hate him right now. I just want to,
Chris:
[39:36] I mean, it's, it's the truth, but I, I, I want to believe it. I want to believe so bad that they are so smart that they are, you know, because his new entrance with the black and white is so perfect and his promos have been so good. But the whole fact, like, And maybe they're just too good, but the fact that The Rock didn't show up at Mania, and then The Rock is saying all this stuff online. And The Rock said everything's a work, so maybe everything really is a work. It is. But the fact that The Rock didn't show up, the fact that The Rock is saying, I have problems with Mania, how Mania went, it's like, okay, but when is he going to show? I don't know. It feels to me like they compromised Mania, which feels a little sacrilegious to me.
Tyler:
[40:23] Nah they're they're playing you i promise you this is it's gonna have a payoff later like if this was if vince mcmahon were still in charge this is gonna be like a long wrestling segment but that's okay if vince mcmahon were still in charge i would assume they fucked everything up like i would bet the writers had like a 20-year arc and then every monday vince would come in and change everything and derail all their plans and whatever. But with Triple H and The Rock in charge, ostensibly, I genuinely believe that they won't drop the ball on these kinds of things. So yeah, The Rock doing all this stuff, saying I had problems with it or whatever, that's a word. 100%. You ever watch Dark Side of the Ring? The documentary series? Yeah.
Tyler:
[41:17] They do this stuff to each other. They work the boy. I've seen this even at small scale stuff. Just very small wrestling companies. It's almost like method acting. In a strange way. You will have wrestlers who will get so deep into their character that they forget that they're a real person. And then they just start living the gimmick.
Tyler:
[41:46] And I don't think John Cena has fallen I don't think that he has fallen for that I genuinely believe that he's like going through the process he's had 20 years to figure it out what is the best thing I could do to make every wrestling fan hate me beyond oblivion it turns out it's to fake the lock up, roll out of the ring and not wrestle that's the best wrestling move in the world if you're a bad guy
Chris:
[42:16] Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I mean, I don't know, it's just kind of like, he's making it work, I really believe that he's just not as good athletically as he was, you know, a couple years ago, which is crazy when you look at Orton, because I feel like Orton is just an absolute beast in the ring, I mean, he looks beautiful, he wrestles beautiful, I mean.
Tyler:
[42:43] He he's graceful very graceful yeah
Chris:
[42:47] Or a panther he is really awesome the whole KO thing is so sad but you know whatever.
Tyler:
[42:56] Yeah Kevin Owens and Sammy Zane are like those two guys that I've literally been watching them since they were Kevin Steen and El Generico wrestling in high school gyms and shit I remember when they showed up in nxt and i was like oh my god finally you know and here we are 15 years later and we're still having that man those guys are never gonna win a fucking belt are they yeah yeah i genuinely think that they will both get their comeuppance it was like two years ago sammy zane was like really hot it was when he was in the middle of the the bloodline angle right right and he was like the honorary Uso or whatever the fuck a lot of people thought that was going to be his like moment like the crowd was super super into him and then all the Vince McMahon shit blew up and I think that back and forth kind of muddled their ability to take risks but I like the direction now with Triple H in charge because he he is making a constant effort to kind of like recognize talent and bring people up to the forefront that are capable but would have never gotten that shot under the McMahon kind of helm.
Tyler:
[44:13] There are so many people who were, I thought, potential all-time great WrestleMania main eventer material that just never got a proper chance. Believe it or not, there was a moment, probably 2011 or some shit, where I could have seen The Miz and Dolph Ziggler Growing up to be the main event of WrestleMania and they just Neither of them ever got put into That spotlight and I don't think the Miz minds but I think Dolph Ziggler minded I think he could have done a lot yeah
Chris:
[44:46] I really love this whole all-in, you know. I think when you look at the timeline of events with Cody, I mean, it is so, like, heartwarming, you know, to see him fuck off and then, you know.
Tyler:
[45:04] Stardust.
Chris:
[45:05] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love Goldust. I love Stardust. But to see him be like, man, I'm done. I'm done. And then work his way back. Man, that New Japan run from, like, 2014, you know. With Finn and then all through Cody and then eight dude, AJ and new Japan. Come on, bro. Come on. I do think AJ is being squandered. A lot of talent I think is being squandered right now. I think they have to weed out, you know, some people in the roster, but you know, AJ, I just wish, I wish he would have an actual good match.
Tyler:
[45:37] I think, I think it was cool to have AJ work Logan Paul. Yes.
Chris:
[45:43] Yeah.
Tyler:
[45:43] And I'm not saying AJ Styles can't still have 10-star matches or whatever, but he's old as fuck. AJ Styles is a walking corpse in the world of wrestling. And the fact that he's still agile and everything is amazing and everything. But I think he's in the phase of his career. It's like, what else is there for me to do other than to help younger talent look great? Um logan paul is a fucking like i don't i don't know i don't i didn't really know them outside of like celebrity boxing before yeah he showed up and i know that a lot of people think that they're assholes and that may very well be true but that dude is like the fastest transition from not a wrestler to really solid wrestler since kurt angle like he just took to it like a duck to water and he's really good um and having him work with all this like great talent I mean, obviously they want him for the celebrity factor, but like he has good matches, like putting him with Mysterio, putting him with AJ Styles. He's going to be challenging for the, I don't know when this will come out, but he's going to challenge for the world heavyweight championship against Jey Uso on Saturday night's main event. And they're obviously trying to build him up. And I think AJ can do whatever he wants. It's kind of like.
Tyler:
[47:05] Not right now, but a few years ago, it was working with John Cena. It doesn't matter if he loses because people are still going to love him no matter what.
Tyler:
[47:15] If AJ Styles wants to have another title run and they decide to do it, he could do it, and it wouldn't matter that he lost to Logan Paul or whatever. No one's even going to bring it up.
Chris:
[47:24] Right. I thought Logan versus LA Knight at SummerSlam was honestly one of the best matches. I mean, I was there at SummerSlam, so I was feeling it a little differently. Uh but i love la nightman i think he's just so so good.
Tyler:
[47:39] He's he's like also like we were saying graceful but like everything that he does is just effortless looking when he does the you know jumping from the second to the top rope to the elbow drop combo like he's very very very smooth he's buttery he he has the some of the best entrance music i think in wrestling history too man so he's got that like night rider thing going on like the retro wave yeah yeah um he's an interesting one i don't know i don't know where his like career arc will take him like i feel like his character needs to evolve some but i mean he's got time he's young so well
Chris:
[48:21] Actually he's only three years younger than orton he's in his 40s.
Tyler:
[48:26] Genuinely yeah la night hold on yeah
Chris:
[48:30] He i believe I.
Tyler:
[48:32] Need to see this for myself
Chris:
[48:34] That's why That's what is so crazy right now.
Tyler:
[48:37] Sina is
Chris:
[48:39] 48 AJ Styles is 47 LA Knight's 42 Damian Priest is 42 We have a lot of old talent right now.
Tyler:
[48:49] Orin Cassidy's like 45 or some shit Yeah I had no idea LA Knight was An older gentleman I didn't know him from the indie scene or anything like that
Chris:
[49:01] Yeah, no, he took a long time on the, he's very much like a modern DDP, you know, not really hitting it till his 30s and a little later.
Tyler:
[49:10] Yeah, DDP didn't even like start training until he was 35 or something like that.
Chris:
[49:15] Yeah insane insane but actually well you know people this this is a thing we might get into later with acting but ddp in his 20s like 25 was going to work for wcw and was like training but then decided to like go off and run a bar or whatever yeah.
Tyler:
[49:33] He was in the nightclub business like
Chris:
[49:35] Yeah yeah yeah yeah and and then he came back 10 years later and obviously it blew up um so he i mean he still had some of that training and i it i would be interested in like if there were photos of him in the nightclub era to see
Chris:
[49:49] like how much he kept that you know kind of body mass and everything or if he had it.
Tyler:
[49:53] Yeah he was always like a bigger dude in general but i don't know if he was like brushing weights i think but i mean a lot of people in that miami scene were probably you know pumping some iron looking at the time in wrestling it wasn't really about like athletic muscle mass it was about looking gigantic yeah definitely so the you know the steroid era and all that stuff but right DDP taught me how to do yoga man I had the full DVD set and everything
Chris:
[50:23] You got it DDP yoga that's what's up man big.
Tyler:
[50:26] Big fan like I had a back injury as a teenager, and then my doctors were just like, you're just going to have horrible arthritis when you're older. So I was trying to combat that, and I got into the DDP, the Yoga for Regular Guys DVD set, man, where he wakes up in his bedroom, and he's like, hey, I'm going to take you guys up to my room. Don't tell my girl. Ladies, if you want to hold back the hands of time, squeeze those glutes. I was 100% into that shit, man. It was awesome.
Chris:
[51:02] No, DDP, I, over the past year of watching some of those DVDs and watching his series, you know, Jake the Snake, Return of Jake the Snake, and, you know, everything that DDP has done, I love how, I bet you, I'd love to have a conversation with him because philosophically, he must be so, so zen and, you know, interesting in those ways. But the fact that he is smart enough to take the jocular, muscular things you're saying, tits and ass, muscles, all this shit, and somehow convince these guys to do yoga and not fuck their lives up, it's like, good work, nice job.
Tyler:
[51:48] He's like a toxic masculinity double agent, almost.
Chris:
[51:51] Literally, literally.
Tyler:
[51:53] The way that he's managed to get, you know, basically Eastern medicine into the minds of like the most not likely to try it kind of people, me included, you know, to be honest, uh, he's genius. And I have to come in. He's a class act, dude. I mean, even showing up for, for the hall of fame induction ceremony, this, this, you know, a few weeks ago, like he didn't have to do that. He was the second choice and sting didn't want to do it and all that stuff, but he just did it like a man. And. I don't think there's anybody that's got a bad word to say about him. I'd love to interview you, DDP, if you ever hear this.
Chris:
[52:29] Yeah, man, DDP is the GOAT. It was interesting. I wondered why Luger wasn't on that big lineup on the WrestleMania stage. Maybe he just wasn't fit enough to, or they couldn't figure out how to get his wheelchair up on stage. But I was a little confused about that.
Tyler:
[52:53] Is it like, it's actually odd for you to, how old are you now? 24?
Chris:
[52:57] Uh, 23.
Tyler:
[53:00] 23. It's a weird time to start getting into wrestling.
Chris:
[53:05] Yeah, but I mean, we might talk about this too, but like, I'm very much a, I mean, I hate to say it this way because it sounds so pretentious and bullshitty, but I'm an intellectual in terms of like everything. You know, I just bought, I just, this great illustrator, Katsuya Tirada and Hajime Soryama, they, and this other guy, Rockin' Jellybean, they did a three book erotica, like, it's basically pornography. But basically they just drew the most beautiful, like crazy cyberpunk pornography ever. And a lot of people might think that that is like disgusting or whatever, but I don't, I mean, I have read books, literal like 300 page essays on, on all this stuff. I have written essays on, on this stuff. So, so to me, like nothing is off topic in terms of analysis and analysis and, um, yeah, yeah.
Chris:
[54:12] You know, think about it. Um, uh, but I think nothing is off topic. You know, I, I love analyzing everything. And I think wrestling is, uh, uh, I think it's like the Grey's anatomy for, um, live theater. You know, all these people talk about soaps and Grey's Anatomy and like how they're able to watch these things and turn their brains off. And I think that, uh, wrestling is just another facet of that in the entertainment world that are not, not enough people, I think give it its due and it deserves it.
Tyler:
[54:49] It's still the most popular sport literally in the world. Yeah. Like soccer probably is number one. And then wrestling is more than the Superbowl, more than NFL, more than NBA, more than MLB, more than cricket, like whatever the fuck's popular there. It's like, it transcends mediums. And that's what I, like. From a business standpoint it's always way ahead of the curve like they had the wwe streaming exclusively on an app right way before all the fucking cable channels caught on to it way before espn caught on to it like it was just they're always innovating it's basically porn i mean no genuinely like the porn industry where they like the first people in will be where there's a new technology or a new region or market that opens up the first two things in are pro wrestling and pornography yeah
Chris:
[55:44] Yeah crazy it's crazy.
Tyler:
[55:46] Yeah like even in the video game industry i've brought up so many times in so many meetings we're like man we should be like really looking at saudi arabia and india and then i would be told like that's dumb i'm like why is that dumb well people in india don't have computers i'm like that's the most retarded fucking thing i've ever heard in my life and you're like well you know they don't like the same kind of stuff we do or whatever i'm like it's literally because you didn't translate the game into hindi if you did and you made it available in their market they would buy it and there's like a billion people in india with money and they want entertainment so you should be marketing this game to indian people because they're people and whatever but in the arabic world and all that stuff too is like and then wwe goes to india they go to saudi arabia and i'm like okay what else do you need then they they start doing shows in europe nfl starts doing shows in europe nfl is going to start doing shit in the middle east you're probably going to do shit in india too and i'm going to sit there and be like i was i was told you guys and i'm not i'm not a prophet vincent man is a prophet he's also a terrible person, but he made some good calls business-wise. That's okay.
Chris:
[57:06] It's... Yeah.
Tyler:
[57:08] From a... Okay, so...
Tyler:
[57:14] Other than in school, how did you continue to do active theater work and stuff as a part-time kind of extracurricular job?
Chris:
[57:28] Yeah, so in high school, I once again did another apprenticeship type thing with a local theater company, probably our largest professional theater company in Charleston. And I got a sound design apprenticeship there. And then, yeah, so I was doing that in high school. And then also in high school, I started working for a local children's theater company. And so in addition to acting there and taking classes there, I was also, I helped out with the lighting. I helped out with projection design, sound design, which then when I got into college and those became, you know, all of that started butting up against each other. It just, it made it that much easier because I had all of those experiences.
Tyler:
[58:18] That's awesome. Like, did you, so did you know when you enrolled in school,
Tyler:
[58:26] like what direction you wanted to go or did it take you some time to like figure it out?
Chris:
[58:32] I mean, I always knew theater, acting, this is how I'll phrase it. Acting gives me life. Going up in front of a microphone, going up on stage, getting in front of a camera and, you know, acting is maybe the most rewarding thing that I can do as a person. So when I started, you know, applying for Juilliard and all the big schools and, you know, I got a couple of callbacks from DePaul and NYU and stuff, I didn't get in. It was like, OK, where can I go? So when I went to...
Chris:
[59:11] This children's theater group, the main person there who got me in, she said, hey, I'm also a professor at this college. Do you want to come to this college? So I said, sure. So I went and then immediately it was like, okay, I'm acting in a play. I'm lighting, designing this. I'm being asked to do this. I'm a carpenter. I'm an electrician. And I just kind of fell into it all. um and that and but i i mean once again people people might say oh i just fell into this and then i was able to have this amazing resume but i took four years in high school and was always doing something theater related so by the time i got to college and they were looking they they had it they had a you know fluke thing where they needed carpenters i knew how to do that stuff they had a fluke thing where they needed uh electricians i knew how to do that stuff they They had a fluke thing where they needed anyone who had a basic knowledge of anything in the entertainment industry. I was able to do that, you know, in regards to theater.
Chris:
[1:00:12] So then throughout college, I just kind of honed everything and worked on everything. I was able to go to Japan and do performance there, work on a show there for three months, in addition to lighting the show and kind of being art director, technical director.
Chris:
[1:00:30] So I mean I would say One of the greatest things I've done And maybe one of the worst things Maybe why I don't have a job right now Is that I don't enjoy, Total specialization I'm just a jack of all trades guy You know.
Tyler:
[1:00:47] No, they'll find a use for you.
Chris:
[1:00:49] Yeah.
Tyler:
[1:00:50] I'm sure of that. But I think it's really, really smart to just be the guy who can show up and work no matter what the thing is. Like being in a rock band. If you only play the guitar, that's great and all. But what if we need a drummer? What if we need a bass player? What if we need a singer? If you could just show up and go to work, that's always useful.
Tyler:
[1:01:14] And probably at some point you know you'll find your groove and you'll be able to just decide what you want to do um i yeah i'm guilty of basically the same thing i think i just always kind of had a i don't know some other form of making money along the way and then i was just like and i'm gonna dedicate all of my free time to this thing that i like um but even getting into video games like i fucking i took a programming class and then i took another programming class and what i learned was i hate programming thank you and i saw i was not gonna do that and then i've yeah would it be a level designer i'm like no i've never even opened up a fucking level editor in my life and i i kind of hold that as like a point of pride like i'm just i'm not doing that
Tyler:
[1:02:01] Because i don't want to like i know i don't want to do that it's sure i i have so much respect for what it takes to be a great level designer and i know i'm not doing it like what i like is the storytelling part of it like i like writing and also like being the like kind of fulcrum of a team like that's same way as you like just adapting all like getting all these other skills from different places and then applying it to the new thing that you're doing like everything that i learned in the military about leadership applies in the business world all of it and except for like discipline which i'm not allowed to like make people pick up cigarette butts in the parking lot anymore but i mean whatever um and then when you when i went to apply for a job yeah for video games or whatever i didn't really have to apply but like when i was talking to people about like what am i going to do when i move into this like there what experience do you have i'm like well i own a video game company and i was a staff sergeant in the air force and the guy was like well how does that really qualify you to be a producer for a video game i'm like
Tyler:
[1:03:08] I promise you if you give me any group of people and a goal i will make them do it that's i'm a good at that doesn't matter what it is if it's weather forecasting for the air force or if it's some kind of like exercise we have i don't care if it's if the goal is finish a video game i just need to know what the tools are to do that like it wasn't a transition of like my skills needed to change i just needed to like get familiar with things like uh i don't know unity or fucking i don't even know half the names of them because that didn't matter either ultimately i just needed to know that there was somebody who knew what that was right so like i didn't know what a i can't even think of it i'm a fucking i'm a total fraud I've been exposed myself.
Chris:
[1:04:03] Yeah. Fraudulent. Fraudulent alert. Fraud alert. You ever played Dive Kick?
Tyler:
[1:04:07] Uh-uh. Is that...
Chris:
[1:04:08] What's that? Dive Kick is a two-button fighting game. Hell yeah. And all there is is Jump and Kick. And it's fantastic.
Tyler:
[1:04:19] Johnny Cage.
Chris:
[1:04:20] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's Johnny Cage parody characters and stuff. And anyway, in Divekick, if you press the buttons before the start of the round, it says a fraud alert. And you get a giant thing that says fraud over the screen. Anyway, it just reminded me of that. You should check out Divekick. It's really awesome. Always on sale.
Tyler:
[1:04:42] We'll put it in the show notes. People will buy that. And then also wishlist Stellar Valkyrie and Caller Surignar.
Chris:
[1:04:49] Yeah, all those.
Tyler:
[1:04:50] Leave a five-star review on your listening platform of choice and smash that subscribe button.
Chris:
[1:04:56] Smash it pulverize um yes.
Tyler:
[1:05:00] Like doing all kinds of different stuff like doing the carpentry stage lighting actually performing and stuff like do you feel like do you feel like you know what you would like to do like if you just had you got to make the decisions and you had all the money in the world like what would you what would you want to do with that time
Chris:
[1:05:20] Yeah so if i really could just like yeah win the lottery big huge just be able to produce um i think i would make giant multimedia projects that were kind of mixing um both experiential and um visual arts i mean a a huge thing for me is like nine inch nails um nine inch nails is kind of a project I have loved so much.
Tyler:
[1:05:51] Everyone with autism loves Nine Inch Nails.
Chris:
[1:05:54] Well, undiagnosed here. You know, but I think them and I think Nine Inch Nails is kind of similar to WWE in terms of they're able to take something like experimental art, industrial art, And bring it to the masses. And then when you go back and trace the roots to these experimental artists anywhere in the world and look at their galleries, you know, look at performance art.
Chris:
[1:06:27] It's all incredibly interesting. And I think a lot of people maybe don't consider it real art at a certain point. You know, they're like, oh, this is weird, you know, or, you know, the classic, you know, I can draw what Picasso drew. My three-year-old can draw what Picasso drew. But at the same time, it's like, well, you need to consider it as actually being art. And if you actually experience it, then that would be awesome.
Chris:
[1:06:53] So kind of if I had all the money in the world, I would produce and perform and have a hand. But I would also, similar to you, I love leading a team. In any kind of situation I'm put in, I kind of always rise to the top in at least a leadership role. Maybe it's not an experience role or a talent role, but I'm always kind of becoming a leader of a team. And so I love collaborating. And I loved my college career because I had to work with a collaborator who was absolutely trash at everything. And he was a total dick. And working with this guy kind of made me realize how much I love collaboration.
Chris:
[1:07:40] Because anytime I wasn't working with him, I was having a lot more fun. You know so it kind of told me all these little things so if i had all the money i would probably do uh pseudo political um interesting experimental art where people could go and they could you know, touch people's shirts and it would be activating a google form that someone else on the other side of the venue could be playing a video game and then you know a picture of their face would you know i mean just crazy shit i love that stuff man.
Tyler:
[1:08:14] That's yeah the the logistics of projects like that are what i find so like interesting like i don't know that i would want to lead that project but what i want to want to do is have like you as the creative genius and then me as the all right let's figure out how to actually pull this off and the practicalities of it like i think of like rob zombie when he you know would do these like halloween maze like giant festival things and stuff like that like just the the design and effort and the teamwork that goes into like taking someone's like insane idea and making it into a reality that you can actually interface with is like so fascinating um
Chris:
[1:08:54] Truly i mean look at disney dis i i'm not a okay maybe i'll get a job with disney so i won't say anything but um uh you look at disney and the fact that they're able to coordinate all this stuff for their live events while in the same building making sure that the marketing art direction is the same for when they push a mandalorian thing you know and a lot of it comes from you know several sources but i think you can look at uh uh and and this might be a little maybe i'm being a little too you know kind of going everywhere right now but that's just kind of how my brain works but like look at marathon right now like bungee's marathon has such an epic cool, Maybe not epic But this kind of Y2K I don't even know what you would call it They have some weird name for it But their new art direction for Marathon Is so cool And so like genius and different For the first person shooter space So taking that art direction And finding a way to, Seep it into Marketing, into, Cinematics, into the video Game itself is is such a monumental but awesome task i think and i i mean that that stuff just really is interesting to me.
Tyler:
[1:10:14] I uh i find it so crazy like how one one of the things that i like about the games industry is that it's it sort of calls for every trade and cinema does too in like a different way well i guess in just a less interactive way like you don't need a fucking programmer to make it something that you need to interface with necessarily unless you're doing Bandersnatch, which I would argue is a game.
Chris:
[1:10:44] I would say too.
Tyler:
[1:10:46] Yeah, but like the Basically, you need architects, you need writers, you need people who can act, you need people who can make a computer, do whatever the fuck you want it to do. You need engineers, you need everything to make a game, basically. And the more elaborate the game, the more it calls for. You look at the credits for something like Baldur's Gate. and that's just like the credits are longer than the fucking you know constitution exactly and i i just love that i love i don't necessarily like working with really big teams because i think it just gets a lot it gets lost in delegation but regardless like you have all of these people who are like experts in their field who otherwise probably wouldn't be collaborating and they have to come together to make something happen so your your idea of having you know like some strange where like giant civic center size interactive world for people to mess around with is is interesting with uh like augmented and virtual reality stuff to go a long way with that totally totally um is that something you've experimented with at all um
Chris:
[1:12:03] Yeah i just want touch on your your thing real quick.
Tyler:
[1:12:07] Um of course balder's
Chris:
[1:12:10] Game one of the things that i love about the gaming industry um kind of like we were talking with pornography and pro wrestling is when uh uh, Well, I guess this is just the entertainment industry. Why I love working in it is innovation. And Larian Studios, I'm sure other studios have done this before, but I was listening to an interview with Sven, the main director, guy, director of Baldur's Gate, all that stuff. He was talking about he has a studio in the UK. He has a studio in the Netherlands. He has a studio in Eastern Asia. He has a studio in Canada. He said 24 hours, all, you know, there is never a time when their game is not being worked on. Their game is always being worked on 24 seven. And when I heard that put into words, I was like, wow, like that, that is such an innovative idea. Like, and, and, and all the logistics of like, okay, how do we make sure what we finish in the Netherlands is ready for Thailand is ready for Quebec, you know? And Ubisoft and all these other places do it too, but I like Larian's games more. And the fact that they're able to come together is amazing.
Tyler:
[1:13:34] The trouble with having a schedule like that is that you need to have military precision about how you handle it. Sure. And a lot of, I have experienced this, a lot of game studios want to be
Tyler:
[1:13:45] that way and have these international teams and shit like that. And then quite frankly they don't have like the discipline in place to pull it off because especially during covid time frame like oh you know you can work whatever you want you can sleep whatever you want just you know make sure you get your task done or whatever and it's like okay but like i'm at the control center on monday morning at eight o'clock and that's when decisions get made and then dealing with people's feelings to like well how come this decision got made and i wasn't informed like you weren't at the fucking meeting that's why and and i can't make the if you're in australia i can't make the fucking like
Tyler:
[1:14:26] Australia or not australia new zealand is exactly 12 hours off of europe like if you're in central european time so if your lead programmer is in fucking auckland and your artist is in i don't know the philippines and you're what like everyone has to just kind of agree on when they're gonna have discussions and if you're really good at delegate and larry and i'm sure has a strong sense just looking at their credits i can tell they're more organized about this than most companies like this is the lead guy of this department so when you're having a sprint meeting or some shit like that i don't need to talk to 200 people i don't want to talk to 200 people and 200 people don't want to listen to me i've seen this happen like so many times it frustrated me to no end where it's like a discord call not too dissimilar from the one we're in now but with literally just shit loads of people in it and you know the literally the teacher or not the teacher god the producer is talking to these people in japanese and the rest of the people are just sitting there waiting for them to be done and then he's like okay and that and i'm like
Tyler:
[1:15:39] Why don't we just like have the lead artist maybe the lead art 2d and the lead 3d artist or whatever and you know the the ui team and the programming team everyone just have like one person who's the king of that hill and they can do whatever is convenient for the people on their team have their time together and then just kind of like let the shit roll downhill so you and i can talk on monday and then you will delegate to your team and the next monday we'll meet back up and we'll discuss what progress you made that kind of thing but it's actually way harder than it sounds to get people to interface with so with larry and having
Tyler:
[1:16:19] 24 hour work schedule i mean i'm sure that there's just like a spin talks to the heads of each individual studio and then they you know down the hierarchy chart all the way to you know the the qa kid who's just sitting there yeah trying to break the game um but that kid doesn't need to be in the fucking big boy meeting no offense to him it's just a waste of his fucking time um
Chris:
[1:16:45] And no i once heard a theater person theater professional say i think she worked for kennedy center before trump was there and uh she said i have i i do my art at the beginning of the day i then have five meetings four of which could have been a three paragraph a three sentence email and i wish that they would have been you know that way i only have that one meeting instead of these five stupid meetings you know and i i it one of the cool things about my college career.
Chris:
[1:17:23] Was i was able to work in a design collective and we had our own studio and we were able to pin stuff on the wall and we were able to work on four different projects on the same time with all of us working together. And, um, what you learn very quickly is this person forgot to send this email. This person forgot to do that. And I, uh, you know, this person did not hit the deadline and it's now two weeks past. Um, I love, I love that I was able to have that experience in college because it just shows me I was able to fail there. You know what I mean? It was able to be in an educational environment where it felt so terrible and like I was going to die because I failed and I missed that deadline. And I also didn't, wasn't a good leader over here. And I also, my design wasn't good over here, but now that I'm going into the, you know, working environment as whatever, um, I, I think I'll be definitely more, um.
Chris:
[1:18:22] More, I don't want to say dominant because that has bad qualifications to it, but I think dominant in how I, you know, think about these large group manifestations like like you're saying because it is incredibly difficult even with 20 people to try and get everyone together and get everyone to read their fucking email and get everyone to agree on just one you know this line needs to be 45 degrees instead of you know 180 degrees europeans.
Tyler:
[1:18:51] Really gravitate towards the quote flat hierarchy system where they're like everyone has an equal say and we can all talk about and like and that's really cool up to about 12 people and then and then once you break that threshold it's like okay no somebody has to be the chef in this kitchen you know what i'm saying somebody has to be able to like get every we all have to agree on this is what we're gonna do because especially when you're playing with other people's money you have to think about like every moment that goes like that hour long that five meetings that that girl has to be in right
Tyler:
[1:19:31] Is over time hundreds of thousands maybe millions of someone else's money that just got squandered on we couldn't get our shit together and that's like really what makes me never want to touch the AAA game industry ever again like I fucking I hate the stress of that not because I can't do it because like because you can't get it everyone to agree this is what we should do so like running my own company is a lot better because like a i could just be more laissez-faire about it like stakes are a lot lower like this game costs six thousand dollars i really don't care if it takes a long time or whatever you know when you're when you're seven million dollars in a fucking hole with a project and then there's like corporate people saying like where's our game and we want our money back and all this kind of stuff and then like you're trying to i feel like moses in the desert with the hebrews just like yeah if you guys all just shut up and do it to follow the 10 rules we wouldn't have this problem you know i
Chris:
[1:20:29] Got them written down.
Tyler:
[1:20:30] Okay right here instead of And then Uncle Jethro is like, hey, maybe you shouldn't be holding court every day all day long. Why don't you just get the leaders of the tribes to handle their own tribes, man? But that's a story older than time, I guess. Literally. Learning how to deal with large groups of people. It's going to be the greatest human achievement if we can pull it off.
Chris:
[1:20:59] Yeah, yeah.
Tyler:
[1:21:00] It's interesting hearing you talk about like you know having the space to fail in school and i think that's super awesome like i when i was 22 years old was just sat down in front of a computer with about maybe a year's worth of training they're like all right well here's three military bases and the weather and it's your job to issue the warning 30 minutes ahead of time and if you fuck up billions of dollars of government money will be squandered people will die and it will be your fault so don't fuck up see you in a while and there's a lot of pressure um it's i wish i'd had more space to fit and you know they they truly do give you those like training environment you know Even if you're a fighter pilot, they put you in a fake VR jet or whatever before you do it. Once it's real, it's real. And it's not the same as, oh, what if I don't ship my game on time?
Tyler:
[1:22:06] I had an amazing conversation with this guy. He was one of the head of global publishing or some shit like that at Sabre Interactive. His name's Brad Doan. And we got along really well because he's a former Navy guy. He's like geospatial intelligence or some shit like that but me and it would kind of bond over like people would be so stressed out like i'm stressed out about this game and it's just too many hours and like all this stuff and me and him were like it's not fucking warfare it's it's like no one's gonna die it's okay like i mean it's a lot of money but it's like it's not like anyone's gonna fucking get their head blown off for this so it's all right you know it'll be okay guys um but i i do i do kind of wish in a way that i'd had those opportunities to just like go all the way to the end of something without having to fully face the consequences see what that's like well
Chris:
[1:23:01] I'll tell you it didn't feel like that while i was doing you know Now that I've graduated, I can analyze, look back. I realize now I maybe should have taken some more risks. I do think I am a risk taker. I think I took a lot of risks. I think a lot of them pay off.
Chris:
[1:23:23] But the stress at the time is so high in the design collective that I was a part of that i didn't realize i had the room to fail until uh really now you know until after the fact um which is a good thing and a bad thing but i think it's good because you can look back and see that kind of stuff um a lot of grad school for um theater designers is you just go and for three years you design like a mad person just design design design design this show this show this show this show maybe you're assisting someone on broadway you're doing something here and i think it's a lot more of that okay let's push this as far as we can go you know let's try and fail some more but it's not like let's try you know i i might be explaining it like it's a a nurturing environment you know oh you can fail it's okay man you're all cool but it's not it's not really like that it's more like you fucked up fuck you by the way i'm gonna take away your scholarship you know it's it's that type of thing um but you're right it is not it is definitely not you know warfare it is not ender's game where i just killed you know 250
Chris:
[1:24:41] 000 people because i thought i was playing a video game you know but.
Tyler:
[1:24:45] Even in the weather it would be really easy to just kind to like get disconnected from the fact that there's like people and assets on the other end of the state because you're just sitting in a room with a computer most of the time and then and like i remember this one day we were all sitting there and it's like oh i guess a tornado is gonna hit wyoming yeah today shayan air force basically neat yeah um oh oh god i didn't get the lead time on that warning guys i hope they're okay no big deal and everybody's like laughing and shit and then like a few minutes later they're like um uh there was a
Tyler:
[1:25:20] Kids festival on bass or some shit like that and they had a bouncy house and it got blown over and like a kid and a teacher broke their arms and it was just like that's a very light example of like how bad it could be it's not like if like
Tyler:
[1:25:35] I'm not going to say worst case scenario, but just another example would be like, oh, because the warning wasn't out on time, the airfield didn't go out and tie down the jets or put them in the hangar. So an F-35 got blown into the fucking school on base and everyone died. And then the bombs all went off. And then now there's a chain detonation of nuclear explosions going on across the Western frontier or whatever. Yeah i i had another like kind of it's also one of those things where you don't really get feedback in real time like that's a rare example actually is when you get that like hey something bad happened but it it's like when you do something right no one fucking cares like the weather guy gets the weather right no one complains they're like all right cool well he's but and then if you're wrong and everyone hates you so like i i think it was like really early in my job i i don't know i issued like a wind or freezing rain warning or something like that somewhere remote that no one cares there's probably not even people there but my job and then like six months later during my evaluations like somebody was like oh that day like there was a nuclear convoy driving through the mountains with bombs on the truck and they stopped pulled off the road tied down the trucks and secured the bombs so they didn't get blown over off the mountain and and kill everyone and you did that and i'm like i don't know that that's pretty neat i guess um
Chris:
[1:27:04] Yeah but yeah but i mean you i think you look back it's i mean i i don't want to talk out of my ass on this you know but i i think that you can obviously look at that and say that it that it's to save lives you know to not cause that that added stress i mean you look back to you know like a book like andrew's game or whatever you know the whole reason he is able to stop the alien colony is because he thinks he's just playing a video game yeah you know and so it is.
Tyler:
[1:27:35] War games yeah
Chris:
[1:27:37] Yeah again yeah war games a film yeah.
Tyler:
[1:27:39] Yeah um So do you think you'll, do you think you're done with school or are you going to try to like go get a master's in some, something related or, I mean,
Chris:
[1:27:54] What do you do?
Tyler:
[1:27:54] Like, I don't, I don't know what you do in theater other than just work, you know, or write plays.
Chris:
[1:28:00] That's the thing that's the thing i'm kind of realizing is you know as a person like myself who is a theater artist but also a multimedia artist you know i'm someone who is you know applying for game and internships i'm emailing lighting people at game studios you know i'm emailing lighting people in live events um and especially with the way i think politically of the world it just became very clear to me as i was spending i mean this last semester of my college I missed five weeks, five of 18 weeks. So that's, you know, a little less than a third. So in those five weeks, I traveled around the country and for weeks at a time was in a state or in a city like New York or Baltimore or wherever and was going to conferences and stuff, you know, like you would for games, you know, GDC or whatever. We have those in theater.
Chris:
[1:28:55] And I was going to these conferences and meeting people and you know I was doing a lot of auditions and stuff specifically for grad school and then I was having all of these interviews and talks and callbacks and stuff and I just kind of realized like as a young person these people really don't want me you know as a young actor there's really no jobs for you unless you're a nepo baby. As a young designer, there's really no jobs for you unless you have work. And then you look down the line and you're like, well, if I make it, why would I go back to graduate school unless it is to teach? So that's what you would do. If you want to teach acting, if you want to teach design, then you... Uh, go to graduate school. If you want to work like me, if you want to make a difference like me, you know, if you're someone like me, who I think, uh, has kind of bigger aspirations for the world and what I want to make on it artistically, I, I just don't see currently how grad school is going to impact that besides connections. Like I got into the callback phase For NYU's graduate acting program Which is a really big program If you go to this program You get a bunch of industry insights You basically make it You know, NYU, Juilliard, Yale All of these huge drama things You basically make it They're highly pretentious.
Chris:
[1:30:22] But again, now that I'm just looking at it I'm like, would I really want to go To a program like that and make it that easy or would i rather you know meet someone like you or meet someone like me you know people who i could be like a kevin smith with you know and then make our clerks together and then that's how we make it in the industry you know meet my matt damon you know that that just sounds so much more interesting to me you know meet uh you know my david lynch and then work with him to get, I mean, that just seems like the better choice. It's, it's a very non easy. There is no, it, I think back to my friend who I just had an advertising talk with, it seems so easy, right? You just go to portfolio school and then you get a job. But I think what attracts me about the art life is how uneasy and how open it is. There is no box for them to put you in. And if they try to put you in a box, then you should start screaming, you know.
Tyler:
[1:31:19] Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. Like I, I just feel one of the things that I do like about the games industry is that there, I'm not going to say there isn't one, but it's way up the chain before you get to that, like snooty pretentious shit. Like most people are gamers, you know, at their core or in some facet, they're an artsy type person. Yeah. And so like, I've had a few different friends who've like pursued different art, like college related art type things. Fields or fine art or music or whatever and i know in my soul i could not deal with all the pretentious political bullshit that goes on in that world like just just being a painter and like getting into the art gallery scene sounds terrible it sounds like fucking trash because you have to just pretend to be something you're not or whatever to get along with these other people who have these like made up opinions about what they think is in vogue or yeah proper or whatever what's
Chris:
[1:32:31] Selling all that shit.
Tyler:
[1:32:32] Yeah and with with theater i'm like well how could you all like how could you have a group of people who all like to act and like basically play pretend all day long but become these like vicious fucking animals that just want to like tear each other apart and all that stuff and like hearing chris's uh chris guerrero's experience going uh to ruggers i was like fuck that dude yeah you don't i was like i told him multiple times while he was going through i was like you don't need this like you could be the the people who are giving you these problems are not even like successful actors like there's like that those who can't do teach and those who can't teach teach gym thing where it's like they're telling you all this shit about what you need to do and what's proper or whatever and like none of that stuff applies in the real world like I assure you that like matt damon was not having those kinds of fucking struggles when he was working with kevin smith he may have had that somewhere else in the acting world but like sure the stuff that we actually enjoy and want to do this is not a problem um i
Chris:
[1:33:38] Talked with chris about his about his uh yeah his time doing all that stuff and i i i unfortunately think chris is a a martyr you For that type of life, I talked with him and he was like, directors were shitty to me, people were shitty to me through a lot of my acting career. And now he's thinking about leaving the art life. And I mean, that just breaks my heart because I think the more artists we have in the world is, the better the world can be. But at a certain point, yeah, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. He's got so much talent.
Tyler:
[1:34:18] He will uh he'll be back i think you you know it's one of those you you lose the battle but you don't give up on the war kinds of things and i've known him for a long time like i think he'll take a break for sure and he should you know like i think you gotta collect your collect yourself and figure out like why you're wise for doing things and you know what you're really passionate maybe just like in his case like because he's my age you know like start a family like do normal people shit and then come back to it when you have time. Like you don't have to you don't have to kill yourself trying to fucking be successful in a very specific kind of way. Like you can approach this from so many different angles, but yeah, just like, I hate the idea of people who would like bright eyed, bushy tail, you know, amazing idea. Like that, just how many great potential artists of whatever kind are just going to these institutions and like, in his case, like selling four years of his life to the government to be able to afford to do it, you know? Right. Just to get there and have all of their dreams just crumbled up in front of them because somebody has like a weird political problem with masculine dudes with mustaches or whatever. And like, I don't know.
Chris:
[1:35:31] Yeah, it was, it was, it was so weird. And it is very hard to hear, um, yeah, vets going through that because I mean, there's, I, I have met many vets who, like you're saying, you know, will sell themselves for four years in order to get the opportunity. Um i and i think a lot of like you're saying like a lot of vets do end up um coming out of it with with great careers you know like adam driver or or all those great people you were saying um, but i mean it is tough it's not it and i think you know at the beginning of this conversation i had talked about how people are kind of secretive and they don't tell you a specific path You know, for this life. And I think the reason is because life gets in the way of the work for this type of work. So, and you have to, you have to be, I think the way to adapt with it is to adapt and to be fluid and to.
Chris:
[1:36:33] You know all these people i i just got out of school with all these people who are like i just want to work in the theater i just want to do this i just want to do that when i'm like dude, i feel like you'd be so much better as an architectural renderer you know and then through that learning things to bring back to the theater or do you know i think about myself and i'm like man i love video game lighting so much i mean i you know i watch every digital foundry video you know i i look at all these you know uh i read essays on physically based rendering and all this shit and i'm like well why shouldn't i try my hand at lighting rendering you know or or or shadow people you know so i and and and among many many other things and i i just think fluidity is the way that we um solve the world's problems.
Tyler:
[1:37:18] Yeah i i think that a lot of that like secretive don't you know not giving people like the the i don't know the the golden ticket or whatever when they're starting out sure i think it's because there is no correct answer to the question it's like what do i need to do to be successful and it's like the only advice that anyone can give you is what they've experienced so if like if your path to success was going to college and doing exactly what everything that you've described and then eventually you end up i don't know on some crazy like movie set or like producing broadway or doing the lighting for night whatever the fuck it is you're just gonna have your own individual like well i did these steps you know um and is for me like i have people come to me all the time how do i get into the games industry or what do i need to do to get a job in the games industry and the only honest advice i can give them is like
Tyler:
[1:38:21] You you kind of just have to uh like you said be really versatile and like be really open-minded but you also you're there's no way i could tell you to do what i did because you couldn't do what i did like you will not be presented with the same set of challenges and opportunities that i was i didn't i didn't do anything conventional by any stretch of the imagination i didn't go to i i took one semester of game design school and i decided that it was a waste of my time because like it was taking away time that i could be working on games literally i was like yeah this is i'm i'm taking a fucking pre-calculus class or whatever when i could be actually actively working in the games industry right now and that's
Chris:
[1:39:04] Exactly what i felt when i was looking at mfa programs because i was like why would i take another four years out of my young life right or another three years out of my young life where i have all these crazy ideas why would i not want to now fail on a huge scale but learn so much you know i mean that just seems so much better than me then i mean we haven't even opened up the can of academia bullshit which is exactly like you're saying is all you know uh this this this funder needs this this uh you know to get this scholarship you need these mini credits to get this certification it's like man fuck this you know I want to work. I want to work.
Tyler:
[1:39:47] Yeah. I genuinely, the way I do business, it's just like,
Tyler:
[1:39:53] You seem like you could be useful you know like give them a chance who cares like we'll see what happens and that's so much better like for i'm not i'm not going to diminish the entirety of like the academic structure and like the learning that happens along the way and everything but i will say for a lot of there's a lot of people who i'll just use the military example i knew a lot of second lieutenants who had met degrees who couldn't do the weather and then i had like a 19 year old from fucking chicago who couldn't fucking i don't know like tell you who the president was during 9-11 but could do the weather better than this second lieutenant with a met degree right and that it just there's so many different paths to being good at something or being successful at something or whatever. And like having someone tell you, you need to check off all these boxes before I'll even consider you is kind of ridiculous.
Tyler:
[1:40:52] Even, even when you're applying for jobs, kiddos out there, when you're filling out your resumes and shit, like you don't need to, like if the resume says like you need four years of experience doing this and this and this and that probably don't, you probably just need to be impressive in the interview phase. So just lie or say whatever you have to do to get into the interview. And once you've like charmed the people and made them think that you're a likable person they're probably more willing to want to work with you like i i would much rather work with someone who's like a blank slate but cool to work with than someone who thinks they know everything like that sucks yeah but um
Chris:
[1:41:29] I i totally feel that i just had this interview where actually i was going to work with nine inch nails as a lighting technician um but i didn't get the job you know and it was because I think I didn't do my research for that company. And the company was only interested in technical people. They said, what are your goals in the industry? Because I have a great technical resume. And they said, what are your goals for the industry? And I said, well, I want to be a designer. And they said, well, we can't do that. We only want technicians. So I think in addition to what you're saying, it's not just being a blank slate or ruling the interview, but in order to rule the interview, you need to, you know, also understand the job and understand what it means to get the job and then explore, you know, once you get the job.
Tyler:
[1:42:20] Sure. And honestly, you probably didn't want that fucking job.
Chris:
[1:42:24] I agree.
Tyler:
[1:42:24] If that's all, if that's all they want you to do is just be a, you know, sit in this lane for the rest of your life and do what we tell you to. It's doesn't sound very full, even though it's on paper. It sounds really cool. Like, Oh, nine inch nails, all that stuff. I get to meet Trent. You probably don't even get to meet Trent. That's a, that's like, there's so much stuff like that, that I've like ran into, you know, people who want to like go apply it. A specific video game company i'm like why do you want to work for that company and they're like well they made this this this game or whatever and i'm like do you did you look into like what it's like to work at that company what their culture is what their like salaries are any of that stuff and like a lot of times people don't think it's okay when you're younger you don't think about these things but like i found myself in a situation where i had like several different options and it was like i could stay i was getting out of the air force i could stay here in the states and you know basically just be like a remote contractor for this one american company um i could go to poland maybe because i had kind of a friend who was the head of a studio there who i was like hey you know what would it be like and then i could go to like denmark and
Tyler:
[1:43:37] There were multiple facets but just alone like one of the considerations i made was like okay what will my starting salary be if i go to if i stay in america i'm gonna get low-balled because we're americans yeah so that's not good if i go to poland i'll get paid in polish money and if i ever want to leave poland i'll have to move out of poland making polish money yeah and that's really hard to do if i go to denmark i'm gonna make more money than i ever thought I would ever make in my life and then if I want to leave Denmark the next job that I take let's just say I was going to go look for another job if I were leaving this Polish company or leaving this American company and I'm like well my last job paid me $40,000 a year so you know but I'm looking for a bit more I'm having to negotiate out of a hole but I'm like if I start here the next company that like so uh you know what's your going rate I'll be like well the last job I had was this.
Tyler:
[1:44:38] And another piece of advice I would give you is that like, if you have friends who are business people, when they give you a job offer, it doesn't say fake job offer on the top. So if you ask someone to like, give you something with like a company letterhead that says like, we would, you
Tyler:
[1:44:58] know, we were, we're interviewing for this position with this salary rate. And then you go to another company and they offer you an amount of money that's lower than that number and you say oh well i got this bigger offer so it's not that i don't want to work with you it's just that i can't work for i can't turn this down and you'll be surprised how much you can negotiate yourself up um and i actually did do that it's like two different friends like write me like not really fake job offers but i was just like if i came to work for you what would that salary look like and then when i go talk to someone else i'm just gonna see where i land with that um and it's it's just be like being proactive about that kind of stuff being smart about like what other than just what you want to do is like what kind of lifestyle do you want to be living because you probably don't want to work for larian studios because i've heard it sucks dicks to be on a 24-hour schedule you definitely don't want to work for blizzard activision because i heard they drink your breast milk and jack off on you you don't want to work for you know i've just heard that i don't know it's a real things
Chris:
[1:46:02] We've heard these things.
Tyler:
[1:46:03] Yeah like there's just there's all these things to consider other than just like what do i want my job title to sound like or whatever yeah right um no man i think uh we're getting close to your your your heart out yeah
Chris:
[1:46:19] My heart i'm getting hard already man.
Tyler:
[1:46:21] No it's been it's been really really cool to like actually hey last time we talked it was just kind of like a get to know you but to dive into this shit um I have something I need to talk to you off the air about so we should wrap this up and then I'll do that let's wrap it okay Thank you.
Chris:
[1:46:43] Thanks, everybody.
Tyler:
[1:46:48] Thank you, Chris, for coming on the show. That was really cool. I love talking about wrestling and other things. Thank you to all of our supporters over on Patreon. Shannon, Ant, Michael, Fred, Brad, you're amazing. If you would like to be mentioned in that list of names, you can. Go to inthekeep.com forward slash support. There are many different ways other than just throwing money at us or whatever. But you can do that i won't be mad at you uh make sure you're following us on all the stuff we're on x we're on uh linkedin blue sky join our discord discord.inthekeep.com be part of our little community where we talk about whatever you want i guess um yeah that's pretty much it i love y'all god love you stay in the keep
Music:
[1:47:40] Music
