Diego Lezcano is the producer of Who Are You!?, an upcoming video game collaborating with real-life UFO/UAP experts & psychologists developed by Haunting Humans Studio in Argentina. Sharing his personal experiences and thoughts, we dive deep into the nature and recent research that backs up the design decisions of the game.
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- Understanding your experience with depression
- Understanding your experience with the phenomena
- Abduction and extraterrestrial investigations
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Chapters
00:00 Start
3:50 The Birth of "Who Are You?"
15:34 Exploring the Unknown
20:11 Personal Encounters with the Paranormal
28:16 Understanding Emotional Sensitivity
30:16 The Shadow Person Experience
34:05 The Impact of Trauma
43:19 The Role of Belief
48:38 Expressing Through Art
54:48 Exploring the Concept of Hybrids
1:07:06 The Intersection of Art and Experience
1:18:51 The Skeptic's Armor
1:20:25 Perception Altered
1:22:30 Scientific Exploration of the Paranormal
1:25:48 The Dismissal of Research
1:31:33 Horror Influences in Media
1:47:16 Abduction Narratives
1:56:35 The Power of Storytelling
2:02:41 Indie Game Development Journey
Transcript
Speaker1:
[0:00] People break down into two groups when they experience something lucky.
Speaker1:
[0:06] Group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence that there is someone up there watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck, a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in group number two are looking at those 14 lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is 50-50. Could be bad. Could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear.
Speaker1:
[0:46] Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in group number one. When they see those 14 lights they're looking at a miracle and deep down they feel that whatever is going to happen there will be someone here to help them and that fills them with hope see what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you are you the kind that sees signs sees miracles or do you believe that people just get lucky or look at the question this way is it possible that there are no coincidences from father graham hess in the film signs 2002
Music:
[1:38] Music
Speaker1:
[1:45] It was this fucking CIA trying to keep us from recording this. That's what it was. I knew it.
Speaker0:
[1:50] Seems like.
Speaker1:
[1:52] So my friend Diego here is going to tell us all about your wonderful, cool game and all of the things that inspired it. So this is going to be a really, I hope, a fun session. I assume it might get emotional at some point if it does. Like if you need like a tissue box or if I need a tissue box we'll pause and go get those and whatnot but like I'm going to try to keep it relatively fun but yeah just tell us about who are you and then we'll get into like where that came from and everything
Speaker0:
[2:30] Of course who are you as me or who are you the game sorry you can.
Speaker1:
[2:35] Tell us about you too who are you and who are you yeah
Speaker0:
[2:43] Who are you uh well for who are you it's uh, It's a fine experience that we were creating since 2023. Actually, we were starting to work on gaming, right? Like on 2021, we started with a couple of guys that I met. And we were huge and with a lot of love on horror and movies and everything that's enigmatic, aliens, UFOs, from shows to the actual stuff, right? So in 2023, we said, okay, let's start learning about this. So we started creating Who Are You? This was actually made for a game jam that happened on Itch. That was the theme horror game jam, I think the 11th one.
Speaker0:
[3:37] And it was like a three weeks game jam. And we said, there's nothing around about actually aliens, right? There's not many things on horror on the subject.
Speaker0:
[3:50] Like when we checked, it was like everything that was happening at the time was zombies, ghosts, etc. And we said, we want to make something real. Before that, we started creating, we are from Argentina, so we started creating like a small game, like trying to learn regarding actual paranormal situations, real paranormal situations that happen in Argentina. So we said, why don't we do, instead of that, we actually start working on this with the actual stuff, with the actual learnings and the actual information that is being provided right before anything actually burst, right? Because after that, the hearings were starting, a lot of information were coming right, and we said there's nothing and there's no people talking about it and that's why we actually created Who Are You back then mmm.
Speaker1:
[4:47] Yeah, the game is one of the, it might be the only game I can even point to, because as soon as you messaged me about it, I think we were in the Fearzine Discord, and I had posted the Steve Mara interview, and you were like,
Speaker1:
[5:01] oh, this is interesting to me, and I'm like, what are you making? What are you here for? um but it's the only game that attempts to make something based on quote reality you know like these are the like something that actually reflects the real experience that people report of going through an abduction scenario whereas i'd say most most video games are kind of silly or like
Speaker1:
[5:27] Overtly horrific and and focused on the aliens themselves you know like you know space marines or some shit like that instead of what what is the psychological effect of having gone through something like this um so i've just played the public demo that you everyone who's listening to this will hopefully go grab on steam but you know you're you wake up in a in a house and there's fucking beer bottles all over the place and cigarette butts and and you know the there's food out on the counter that's going bad and everything and i i'm like oh man i've totally have been here before uh that's that's depression and you guys really captured that very well and all these half-read books like self-help books or spirituality and all this kind of stuff and i'm like man this this sure does look like someone who has uh who's perhaps gone through something very traumatic uh that they can't explain so yeah i mean what what was like what were the experiences that that you kind of based this on uh
Speaker0:
[6:30] There's been a few things actually we are working with a psychologist advisor. We divide this in two parts. There's, of course, the depression and the feelings.
Speaker0:
[6:44] Actually, the sound producer and the character creator and me, we had different experiences over the year here in Argentina. Seeing things, I saw something that I can recall to be like a UFO sightseeing experience when I was really like a child, back in the 90s. And then I had another situation with some extreme objects. I will say extreme objects because I can't say it is actually what I've seen, but it's what I feel I've seen. But it's not only about that, it's about like a compilation of different situations. We also work with UFO experts from Argentina.
Speaker0:
[7:29] One actually is the director of the, let me remember the name, it's the ISER, like the International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research. So they are pushing on the declassification of everything right after everything blew up and everything started being exposed. We actually got together with them. I said, we don't need actually only to use our experiences. Of course, our experiences help, and the things that we felt, the things that happened to us while growing up help. But we also want to listen to people, right? To hear what they have to say, to understand what they felt. So that's why we did different interviews.
Speaker0:
[8:19] One side was working with the psychologist advisor so she can actually review what we have and what are the experiences people were having. We have like a public, it's not a public, it's more like a private Google form, right? Where people can actually in an anonymous way express themselves on how they felt when this happened.
Speaker0:
[8:46] So we are taking all this information, the information from this UFO team that has all the information, not only from Argentina, but from the world. They work with different people around the world, and they also work with a team of psychiatrists that work in abduction cases. So they actually are the ones who interview these people.
Speaker0:
[9:07] When there's someone that says that had an abduction case to understand what's the limit, right? To understand when there's something real, when sometimes it's something that happened to you, but because of the beliefs that you have and the situations that you are going through your life make you feel something that is not. And from all those interviews, they understand when there's actually something actually happening, right? Something that actually cannot be explained with the regular methods or the regular science.
Speaker0:
[9:40] And that's all the information that we actually take to create this story because this is the story of a family it's not a story like you said it's not actually about okay there's a lot of aliens there's a scary face there's a huge scream no this is a story of about ray ruswell hence the last name, Ray Roswell, and the disappearance of his wife, Amanda, back in the 60s. This happens in the 80s. And we developed this story around family, around the people that have been on an abduction situation felt or feels the actual things that may happen or not, and how the family goes on that situation, right? Because he's left with his only daughter and he has to live over 20 years not knowing what happened with his wife.
Speaker0:
[10:37] So that's how we are building this situation, right? Trying to recreate all these scenarios about these different situations that people felt and try to mix all that on the art and the sound production of it. So when you play and you get into that house and you get into raise a body, you can actually feel things that sometimes is not that easy to explain to others.
Speaker1:
[11:08] Yeah, it's very well, like I mentioned a lot of the setting and everything, but it seems so deeply inspired by when someone is dealing with loss. And that could be anything. It doesn't have to be an alien abduction or whatever. But I mean, like in any time, especially if they don't know the cause of the loss. So when you're talking from a psychological perspective, like how does someone deal with trauma?
Speaker1:
[11:37] And you know there's the the five stages of grief and where you're just getting lost in that cycle of like you know depression and then trying to accept it but never quite getting to that last step and everything and it could be really it could take a toll on you like a lot people people lose their minds over far less than having an alien come in your house and steal your wife or whatever that may be uh and it also reminded me a lot of like the origin story of fox molder in the x-files because like that's his whole thing is like he he witnessed his sister being abducted and then never quite recovered from that to the point where he you know he they they do touch on it a lot in the show although there are a lot of you know comedy elements and everything but you know he joins the fbi and starts this whole x-files division because he's obsessed with figuring out what happened to his sister that's the whole thing and he's severely fucking depressed he has no girlfriend no life sits in his apartment fucking drinking booze and bouncing a basketball on the floor alone all the time if he's not working if he's not like constantly chasing a case he has no idea what to do with his life so there's this sort of like um arrested development that can come from from that um and so the this case with uh with mr roswell and mrs amanda um how did you hear about it?
Speaker1:
[12:59] When did this, you mentioned that it took place in the 60s and then the story now taking place in the 80s, but where did you come across it?
Speaker0:
[13:08] Actually, that's, like I said, that's a mix of a story. We mix all these cases and sum this up on creating the story ourselves, right? So hearing from different cases, because we didn't want to focus this on one specific case, right? Right. Because there's a lot of cases, there's a lot of different situations, there's people we came across with that they say and they tell their stories, but not everyone wants to actually share. So we wanted to get to a common place where there's something that everyone can relate. And at the same time, we are telling different stories from different people. And it's like I said, it's like in an anonymous way. And we try to make this creating our own story, but putting all these things in it. Yeah.
Speaker1:
[13:57] I guess I understood that it is an amalgamation. Like Mr.
Speaker1:
[14:00] Roswell and Amanda are not like the real case. But I mean, was there was there a specific case where this this happened like to a husband who lost his wife or was it more like you were just taking different elements and and sort of just arrived at like that would be the most common scenario or that would be the, you know, the sort of the archetypical scenario to go off of?
Speaker0:
[14:24] Yeah, there's been different cases. So we were taken out of those different cases, not a specific one. There's been situations that people were taken even here in Argentina. There's been even a situation when there's one situation, he was not actually taken, but he was actually assaulted by a UFO. And this was a person that lived in the countryside. He had no knowledge about UFOs. He had no DB. He never heard of anything before that, but he had a weird encounter. He ended up with burns in his body. His dog was killed outside at that moment. And those are the little cases that we take because not everyone knows about the Argentinian cases or the South American cases in general, right? Yeah, usually when you see TV or when you see something on Netflix, everything revolves around the US or Europe. Sometimes Asia is not even that common to hear things from Asia. That is not comical, right? Because sometimes you see a lot of comical things.
Speaker0:
[15:34] But yeah, for this specific situation We wanted to create something that revolves around many things And not just one specific case Because we want to honor all these different stories And all these different feelings and situations people were having.
Speaker1:
[15:52] I think that the fact that it doesn't seem to Doesn't appear to occur in other places, right? I mean, first of all, you're just going to see more media, period out of the United States because we're making a lot of TV shows. We're making a lot of movies. We're making a lot of games in the States. And then we also have like
Speaker1:
[16:13] We've had this tradition of blaming everything that we don't understand on aliens or on the Air Force, now the Space Force in particular, since the 40s. Basically, from the moment that the Army covered up Roswell on, it's like there's always this conspiracy story that the government's involved in it or it's aliens or it's from outer space because the Air Force was such a big thing in the zeitgeist. Um whereas like you do hear stuff about south america more so from brazil i would say than argentina in particular but then instead of blaming it on aliens they blame it on the u.s government they're like oh it's them they're flying jets over the head and all this kind of which is partially true i mean there have been operations in south america since since we've had a military um which is horrible but it's like you know you would hear people talk about ufos in brazil and they wouldn't say the word ufo they'd say cia plane or something like that and they half the time that's what it was but then half the time it's like why are the cia here flying shit over chasing things that they don't understand and the question is is it all just like political control or is it also that there's this ufo phenomena um but in argentina's case in particular you don't see a lot of it like in the news or in the media or in movies and stuff there's not a lot of stories telling about that but if you go on like x ufo or whatever it's like
Speaker1:
[17:37] A huge percentage of ufo sightings are like from farms or whatever in argentina where someone's like got footage of something that they think is a you know is a uap and it's oftentimes at least from what i've seen recently that you keep seeing this this like orb sort of phenomenon that like reminds one of like the Ezekiel's aliens.
Speaker1:
[18:01] Uh, that wheels inside of wheels thing. And that's a lot. It's like, it's hard to tell these days what is, you know, a deep fake or AI generated versus like a real sighting, but it's just a lot of it coming from Argentina.
Speaker1:
[18:14] So yeah, that's all very interesting. And it leaves the question, like, what is the phenomena of when I was talking to Barry Fitzgerald and, and to Steve Mara, you know, they're sort of of the opinion that like,
Speaker1:
[18:25] There's a, there is a phenomena that can kind of be the source of all of the different things so when you don't hear things is like from asia in particular about ufos they don't really have a tradition of worrying about ufos the same way that the western world does they just may they may report a similar phenomena and call it something completely different they don't say it's an alien they don't say it's a uap they just say it was a gen or a spirit or they don't say shit because the government tells them they can't believe in anything anyway um and that's all a factor to consider too that's it does appear to be a worldwide phenomenon but what it gets called what it gets reported as is wildly variant depending on what culture what religion you come from um you know some people see the virgin mary or they see an angel or they see a demon some people see an alien in their bedroom but it's all they're all reporting the same stuff happening to them like it it felt like it could read my mind it was speaking to me telepathically it took me up into the sky you start digging into like the book of enoch right and it's like it that the angels took me into a ship in the sky and we were floating and i could see the entire universe and all the stars and look down upon the earth and like man that sounds a lot like fire in the sky like if you like did they watch the movie fire in the sky when they were reading the book of enoch but um yeah what what is it that personally got you all obsessed with this stuff uh
Speaker0:
[19:55] It's been a lot i mean i i feel it's funny because i feel like i had this feeling since i was born i remember telling my mother hey i'm actually i'm not from
Speaker0:
[20:07] here i'm i can be and actually an alien when I.
Speaker1:
[20:12] Was like seven years old. My brother told me that he found me in a cornfield and cut my antennas off and brought me home when I was a kid.
Speaker0:
[20:19] That can be right.
Speaker1:
[20:19] I think he was just being an asshole.
Speaker0:
[20:22] But yeah, I remember doing all that. Of course, my mother got mad and said, well, I don't have relationships with aliens, so you're human. But I've been like that all my life. And then after I found out about The X-Files, when they started airing The X-Files, I got more obsessed with that. Started watching. I'm a big and a huge movies fan. So I started watching movies like, because in the 90s, you didn't have much access to information, right? So all the information I could get on 94, 95, when I was like nine or 10 years old, it's like just getting information from out of movies or watching Close Contact of the Third Kind, watching Taken afterwards when there was a series, watching The X-Files.
Speaker0:
[21:14] And I was always more involved in the actual investigations right like the approach that you can see even if it's comical there's a lot of conspiracy theories and stuff on the X-Files that you can actually see and there's things that actually are being talked about like right now like cryptids and all the stuff that you were seeing back then right you were seeing things back then and you had the option to actually believe or not and I always choose to believe because I want to believe as your poster says so yeah so it's been like that and after that I've been doing a lot of research when we had access to internet like the first thing that I was trying to look for was.
Speaker0:
[22:02] Why this is happening, right? I always say that I have this weird energy or it's like a paranormal side of me. Like I've experienced different things, not only UFOs. I had my experiences with the hat man, with many things that among time I realized that they were actually could be real and were actually were real because I felt them real. Things like seeing people in front of me while I was sleeping, a lot of things that happened to me that the common people, let's say, won't take as something real and sometimes may laugh about it. But I always said, well, I don't care. This is real for me. I feel this. I felt this. I know what I felt and what I saw. So I want to speak up and say more about it. That's why I'm always the one, right?
Speaker1:
[22:57] Yeah. No, I think that it's a big part of the the research that's currently being done with with project doorway was talking about how people you know they do these experiments psychology experiments parapsychology experiments or whatever and then they just grab like a random group of people they find nothing and they're like ah throw it out but the key is that you have to work with folks who have the sensitivity right and isolating that from someone who's schizophrenic although we could have a whole conversation about what that even is but yeah like you you don't appear at least so far to be clinically insane seem like you can run a business and make a video game and hold the conversation i don't think you're necessarily the guy in the in the grocery store who's telling me that hitler was the second coming of christ and we're all fucked over because we rejected jesus the second time and all that yeah
Speaker1:
[23:51] Although there are those people and trust me i'll sit there and listen to them i don't necessarily agree with what they have to say but like yeah i mean maybe maybe there's some nugget of information in here that this guy's tapped into but yeah being emotionally sensitive or even open-minded to the idea that you are seeing what you're seeing because it could be simply that someone does have an experience does see does hear does feel something but doesn't acknowledge it because it doesn't fit into their their psychological profile i mean if you've been raised your entire life to think that if you see anything like that it's a demon and you're going straight to hell for being accessible to it or whatever you're probably just not going to open your fucking mouth about it just deny deny it in your own mind until you believe that it wasn't there
Speaker1:
[24:34] Conversely you could also be someone who's just way too open-minded you believe everything that you hear believe everything that you see and you fall into the trap of not being able to sort out what is real versus what isn't um i don't know where you fall yet but we'll find it out hopefully mean um but it's so it's so cool though to you know to speak to other people who are you know like hey i felt like this since i was young you know i have something kind of innate in me i think personally for myself i was probably like predisposed to be sensitive to whatever i mean i've had a i had a medium on the podcast a while back and she told me straight to my face like no you're like an empath like you have you have like a really innate ability to like understand emotions and that is like a precept to something you know like the people talk about telepathy i don't necessarily hear voices in my head or anything but i'm just saying like i appear to be
Speaker1:
[25:37] More sensitive to other people's emotions than a psychopath who like doesn't have any in any empathy at all and i feel like i'm perhaps like according to people who also told me this like just on a spectrum of very empathetic to not empathetic at all way on this side of the chart you know um but i was also like very skeptical and to the point where i was in the air force and i was a scientist in the military so like i have like this really rigid way of looking at the world for my whole life. I was always like, if you can't fucking show me the numbers,
Speaker1:
[26:19] if you can't prove it with empirical evidence, I'm not interested. It's just, you're making it up in your head. You're, you know, even down to like religious stuff, I was like, nah, can't measure it. And then, I just started to have more and more experiences as I got older that made, that just caused me to be more and more open-minded. And I'm not like walking out every night and seeing a UFO, although I wish I do. I do go out every night and I do look at the stars, praying that I'll see a UFO.
Speaker0:
[26:47] Maybe the same for it.
Speaker1:
[26:49] Yeah. But then I might regret it, you know, then it might be something like your story. I don't know. But did you have did you ever have particular experiences that convinced you more so than not
Speaker0:
[27:05] Yeah well as you said for example, speaking about people telling you how you are different in certain ways, or you have this special empath ability I like Like my father's wife, she's a parapsychologist. That's useful. Yeah. The first time I saw her, she said to me, like, you can feel the energy on people. And if you don't train that, you can actually suck the energy of people. And if there's someone sad near you, that's going to destroy you because you're going to feel that within you. And you can actually even heal or a lot of stuff that she said back then. I was young. I was like, I don't know. I was a teen. So I didn't take all of that for granted. Like, yeah, all right. Okay, I just met you and you're saying all these things.
Speaker1:
[28:10] But I'm like a stranger would walk up and just start spilling their heart to
Speaker1:
[28:15] you, just start telling you everything about their life. And they're like, you just seem like you'll understand. That happens to me all the time.
Speaker0:
[28:20] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker1:
[28:21] I have like not gone out because of that. Exactly that. Where I'm like afraid that I'm just going to get swarmed with something like that.
Speaker0:
[28:32] Yeah, you can actually feel that pressure sometimes of the energy that you have around.
Speaker0:
[28:41] And yeah, it happens to me all the time. Like when I walk into a room, I usually tend to speak with the people that need someone to talk to rather than people that doesn't need someone for them to talk to them.
Speaker0:
[28:55] I have this vision of seeing those things. But what happened among the years was that, like I said, I saw figures, even in plain daylight, seeing something floating. You can call it many things, like you said. This is actually a funny conversation that we had with Andrea Simondini. That she's the researcher, the main researcher for the things that she do in Argentina, that, as you said, like things that actually see usually depends on your beliefs, right? So it can be an alien, it can be an angel. I don't know what I saw. I know that I saw something. I was not alone. The person that was with me actually saw the same thing. We were like 12 and we ran away because we were scared of what we were seeing. Something weird floating in the middle of the street. It was a city. It was not even like a farm or something like that. It was just an empty lot and something floating near a tree in that empty lot. Then I had this situation, like I said, with the hat man, that I understood later that the hat man is like a common thing that people actually dream of or see.
Speaker0:
[30:17] And that got me to do some research. But that research is something I did like when I was 20, 25. But I felt all these things like for years. There was this, I call it the hat man because it's a common knowledge, but I don't know if it was a hat man or not.
Speaker1:
[30:35] A shadow person.
Speaker0:
[30:35] It was a shadow person, yeah.
Speaker1:
[30:37] A shade. The Witcher is like my favorite game because it just actually has every version of this in it. Except for the hat, man. They don't get around to the Western one, but they have so many different names for all of the things that get reported. It's like, ah, thank you. You put it all in one place. So the grimoire for The Witcher 3 may be our best story for paranormal phenomena.
Speaker0:
[30:59] But yeah, that's right. Yeah, and I have this shadow person following me for years. Right.
Speaker1:
[31:06] That spotting terrifying.
Speaker0:
[31:08] It is. I tell you it is because it started when I was like seven or eight. I used to move a lot. Right. I always rented. I didn't own a house. So I used to move a lot when I was younger with my mother. So we were like two or three years in the house and then moved to another. So I can't blame it on the house. I literally thought that the first time it started, that when I moved, that wouldn't. But I moved, and one day it returned again. But I was always curious. I always tried to actually see what that was.
Speaker1:
[31:50] Did you try to talk to it?
Speaker0:
[31:52] I tried to look at it in their face because I was never able to see their face because it was like a shadow and it was all blurry, Uh, but I was always afraid, but at the same time curious, right? So it happened like, uh, I don't know. It was like.
Speaker1:
[32:15] A bigger set of huevos than me, bro. Like, fuck no. I would have immediately smudged the whole place, told it to leave. Yeah.
Speaker0:
[32:23] Yeah. Well, it was like, uh, I don't know, four or five times over the years. And it's funny and it's scary how this ended because the way it ended, And I always tell this because it's the most realistic thing that happened to me.
Speaker0:
[32:42] Because I was always able to see when there's sleep paralysis and all of that subject that revolves around that, right? It was always standing there. one time the time before it disappeared uh actually the the second the the time before the last time actually um i was just lying in bed and i saw and i felt this present this was a big presence and instead of being scared and trying to step away from that i actually lifted my face to see at it, right? Like trying to look straight into its face or eyes or whatever it has, because it was, like I said, it was like a shadow and never had a form. And it approached it to me and like gave me like a knock on my head like this and then went away. And I had that feeling of feeling that hit or that punch on my head that stayed for a couple of days. But it felt, I mean, I actually received that hit, right? Like something is there trying to scare me or trying not for me to see that.
Speaker0:
[34:05] What is this telling me?
Speaker0:
[34:09] And I was scared and mad at the same time, because why? I mean, first of all, why is this happening to me? Like I said, this was the 90s. I had no actual way to receive information except the weird magazines that we had at the time about UFOs, about Bigfoot, about, I don't know, different subjects, but nothing really specific. And the last time I was last like having a normal dream I used to try I mean I try a lot of stuff and trying to walk on dreams was one of the things that I try a lot and I was actually able to actually do sometimes.
Speaker0:
[34:54] That's why I love the Inception so much but that's a different topic but then.
Speaker0:
[35:01] This time this last time I like I was having a normal dream and then this presence appeared, behind me and I knew this was wrong at a specific moment this was not more a dream this was a mix of things.
Speaker0:
[35:19] And I felt this was my time to actually see and understand and see that face because I spoke to my mother about this and she said, well maybe it's your grandfather because I never knew my grandfather and she said maybe it's your grandfather that comes watching you, okay? That's a weird way of a grandfather to do things. But yeah. So I tried to turn around. I was standing up. I tried to turn around and see its face. And it, like, approached to me in a way more aggressive way. And I started to feel like a huge, huge pain on one of my mothers. It's weird, right? Right. After that, I woke up. I had this pain on my molar. And after that and over the years, I always had issues with my teeth. Always. On that specific molar, and then everything started to fail. I don't know if it's a condition or something, but it got physical. It could be pain. It could be, I don't know. I had, because I always had good teeth under that specific situation. That's why I say it is actually weird. I never had any situation with that.
Speaker1:
[36:37] Did you ever have like a filling in your teeth or anything like that?
Speaker0:
[36:41] Not since that moment. I never had something like that yet. That's why I say it's weird. I was like 12 years old. And after that, everything was the same, right? It never appeared again. It never happened to me again. And I never had any
Speaker0:
[37:00] situation like that specific one. After that, I stopped seeing shadow people. I saw some shadow figures like 15 years away from that situation one time at one of the places that I knew had some weird energy. But that's it. But after that, all I had was the only physical evidence that something weird happened to me. I still don't know what that is. I don't know if I should believe it was that specific situation or not, but for my experience, that's the only explanation for me. Everyone can say different things. Everyone can say, maybe I had an issue on my seat before and that triggered that situation. So my brain actually trying to cope on that pain and creating an image. But I don't know, man. And I felt that for really real.
Speaker1:
[37:59] Yeah, I believe you. It's interesting with the teeth. A lot of the research that Steve Marrow has been doing centers around. First of all, whatever it is, whatever we choose to call it, it fucking hates iron. They do not like oxidizing iron so i keep uh railroad spikes in front of my door like old iron railroad spikes just like laying in front of the doorways and everything but but also like the they seem to prey on people who have deficiencies in in different vitamins whether that be iron or in your case i'm wondering with teeth is it like a calcium thing like maybe it's if it's sapping your energy it may have an effect on the way that your body processes some of that stuff. So I wonder, you know, if you're not having like cavities and fillings as a result of a tissue, if it's just pain, that's interesting. I don't know what that means. I don't think I'm going to be able to answer that question.
Speaker0:
[39:02] I had cavities, but after that, right? I had to have the cavities and fillings, but...
Speaker1:
[39:09] Should have got iron teeth. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker0:
[39:13] I should do that. I'm planning on that. Now that I know better, I will do that. I'll make sure.
Speaker1:
[39:19] Were you afraid of it like did it cause you fear or was it more like a curiosity thing no
Speaker0:
[39:26] I was totally afraid completely afraid yeah but i always felt curious even if i fear.
Speaker1:
[39:36] Most most like mediums at least are gonna immediately tell you like if you're seeing the shadow dude that's the fucking that is a devil and you are being haunted by something that wants to sap your energy. I mean, that's what the... Regardless of how you frame it, like, the shadow people are trying to inhabit you. They want your body. And so that they don't have to be a shadow anymore. They're like a lost soul or a demonic spirit that, you know, thus covetous a male body or whatever the fuck they said. Oh my god, what is that? Uh... The movie Ari Aster, Hereditary, right? They're doing this ritual trying to basically move the demon from the little girl's body to the boy's body, that kind of thing. But it's because the demon wants that. It needs a form that pleases it on Earth so that it can do its work. Have you ever read the Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis?
Speaker0:
[40:41] No.
Speaker1:
[40:43] Very interesting.
Speaker0:
[40:44] I did, but I didn't actually focus on reading that, yeah.
Speaker1:
[40:48] It's a cool book and C.S. Lewis is primarily coming from a very very Christian sort of background but the story itself is like the perspective of a of an older demon telling his nephew who is a younger demon basically like walking him through the steps of how to slowly erode away at a person's will until you can take their soul and and whether that be quite literal or if it's an even if it's an alien that's you know doing an experiment on you or whatever that is like the perspective of from their their point of view what is it they're trying to do and then they see anything that would pull you away from that whether that be your your faith in god or your skepticism or whatever like pulling you out of that that's their enemy they in the book they literally calls god the capital enemy you know throughout the whole thing. They never say the Lord or anything of that nature.
Speaker1:
[41:46] But yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a double-edged sword because at the same time that you're open-minded to it, it's also like allowing it to follow you, allowing it to consume you. Same thing with like a poltergeist phenomenon. You mentioned like moving from different places, you know, going from here to here and it follows you. A poltergeist in tradition follows a person. It doesn't haunt a house, so to speak. and almost always that is a it could be not oftentimes it's a young girl but it could be anyone who has a deficiency in iron because like a young girl when they first start having their periods they're not taking in the um the vitamins that they need to replenish their iron supply and that opens them up to something being able to interact with them so when people are talking about a poltergeist you know it seems like there's this thing in the room that's like causing all this stuff to fly around when in fact the person who is experiencing deficiency already has some sort of telekinetic or telepathic ability and because they're now compromised and they don't yet know how to control it this other thing is able to cause them to do things outside of their own control and And since they don't know that they have that ability, they don't realize that it's coming from them until hopefully, you know, a priest or a medium or someone who knows what they're doing gets involved and tries to help them.
Speaker1:
[43:16] And it can be super traumatic.
Speaker0:
[43:19] Yeah. And now that you say that, because we were talking about this and the iron, but actually I had iron deficiency. I took vitamins like my coffee. I don't know, for the first eight years of my life, I had to take these vitamins every day that's B12, and I don't know which other one was it.
Speaker1:
[43:43] But I had to… Did you have an alcohol dependency at any point?
Speaker0:
[43:49] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Around my knees, I had… Well, I always keep a bottle just in case, but I'm not that dependent anymore. But yeah, I had a lot of situations because when I was like a baby, I had a situation where when I almost die, I have like two situations of that sort. But I'm still here. So someone or something wants me here. So I'm still around. So I had this efficiency in my body. And I always had, like, issues with my stomach issues, some pain. And even I had migraine at some point. So, now that you're saying all of that, I mean, I read some of that, but I didn't actually realize or thought about it. But, yeah, I guess that's quite the situation.
Speaker1:
[44:48] A lot of people would say, like, you're hallucinating because you don't have all the vitamins you need. And at the same time, you could also say the reason why I'm constantly low on this thing that I need is because something outside of me is trying to keep me from being able to cast it away. Um. Yeah, and if you, like, simultaneously have a fucking iron deficiency and are drinking a lot and you have a fucking shadow person following you around, that's, yeah, there's some correlation here. There's some lines that intersect with that. I also, yeah, I was a fucking hardcore alcoholic. Like, I drank a lot, especially while I was in the military and, like, immediately after. I was, like, I was coping with a lot of shit. And I dealt with it completely the wrong way. But I had the same like vitamin B and iron deficiency and I had to just take fucking pills and stuff for a long, long time just to get back to like base level because I wasn't, you know, drinking so much I wasn't eating.
Speaker1:
[45:44] And that's that's what they want. That's that if you look at it that way. Good. Now I've got you fucking right where I want you. And that i was having all of these fucking really deep emotional experiences where i kept feeling like something is outside of me you know and it's easy to like yes i am to blame for putting myself in this situation but at the same time like i feel i feel like i'm not in control of myself not just from like i i can't go without a drink but like there's shit that's like affecting me on an emotional level inhibiting me from being able to like even take that step and the only way i really got out of it was to like get really spiritual about it i was like at a certain point i'm like all right i gotta hand this over to something bigger than myself like i can't do this by myself i need help and shrinks didn't work you know i talked to lots of psychologists doctors whatever the fuck and they're they're not gonna help you like they're gonna try to help you but like they're they're not the answer to your problem is ultimately like
Speaker1:
[46:49] I'm going to use the word spiritual, but it could be just simply something more than what modern medicine offers you, however anyone chooses to interpret that. But you've got to be open to the idea that if something that is outside of what a doctor would diagnose you with is the cause of your problem, then it's probably something also outside of their apothecary of cures that is going to fix it.
Speaker1:
[47:16] Wild. That's such a crazy story, man. holy fuck, are you okay? Like, are you a little scarred from all that?
Speaker0:
[47:24] Yeah. Yeah, I've learned to grow from all those situations. And like I said, I started to learn and understand different things on how things happen. And at some point, I started to talk more about it. Like I said, I mean, you can either believe I'm not going to follow you to your place and telling you, believe me, I'm not crazy. I'm just telling you what I felt, how it felt. It can be many things. I won't say what it is. I will just assume for me how it felt for me, how it is for me. And I will try to express that in many ways. I mean, I used to be a writer. I used to write a lot. I used to do a lot of artistic things because art, I don't know how to draw. If you actually look at the actual drawings on the game, little girls drawings, little Maddy, those drawings are me. That's my actual art. That's how I draw. So if everyone is interested in seeing how a grown man can draw like that, you can see the drawings on my game. But yeah...
Speaker0:
[48:38] I felt and I realized that expressing yourself and talking about it, for me, it helps a lot.
Speaker0:
[48:46] I've been through many emotional states, right? As you may know, there's a lot of things that we can go over over the years. I'm 38 now with a soul of 20, but I still sometimes go to different states of mind or of feelings that I just try to sit and think why things happen, why is this happening. With all the information that's been growing, all these researchers, these experts talking about it, the media, all of the different shows, all of the different ghost hunting situations.
Speaker0:
[49:33] Everything that's available for us right now, it's really good and it actually helps. And it actually helps because people are more open to hear, right? And people are more open to actually believe. Even if they don't believe, I mean, I'm not saying that, I don't know, I saw a ghost following me around with a blanket on their head. What I'm saying is just things that can happen to anyone, right? It's just how you understand that. We actually had, like I said, a conversation with Andrea Simondini about these things, and, like you said, you spoke about Project Doorways and all of that, like, How every person can feel or express their beliefs in different ways. Like I said, this person back in the farm, they had no idea about what's a UFO. They just live for the farm and that's it. And they saw something that actually caused physical pain, burns and stuff.
Speaker0:
[50:42] We were talking about the investigations on how aliens or UFOs actually generate on your conscious on your mind and this multiverse that you may have in your mind that sometimes you project in front of you so you can project an alien, you can project a ghost, a poltergeist, anything.
Speaker0:
[51:07] But it doesn't mean that it's not real is like the USOs. Like you now see that there's UAPs or stuff, USOs actually that come from the ocean. Like in Argentina, we have a lot of sightseans coming from the ocean because we are close to that part.
Speaker0:
[51:29] But it's crazy, interesting, and fascinating at the same time. And that's why we wanted to create who are you in that way and following those
Speaker0:
[51:43] real situations, right? Because it's nice to see how people that maybe don't believe can actually experiment a little bit of how we feel sometimes and actually understand those feelings and maybe seeing things with a different perspective. Yeah. That's great.
Speaker1:
[52:01] It's one of those things where if you're looking for help and no one has the answers to the questions you're asking but if you find other people who at least have the same questions it's a huge help i mean just making making you feel less alone with whatever it is that you're dealing with and to have lots of my own perspective it got to the point where i fully had like a breakdown i was on the phone with my mom and i was saying like okay because my mom is like fucking way into all this esoteric occult stuff like and it has been my whole life she was she was like solving police cases to do with ghosts and shit when I was a kid and even with that in front of me I remained skeptic and then when I've exhausted all efforts like I said all the doctors, all the psychology, everything I was like okay I'm ready now Start telling me what I need to hear because I have nowhere else to go. Like, I don't know how to solve this problem without at least being open-minded to your side of things. And then she was like, yeah, I kind of knew this day would come. It's okay. You'll be fine. Like, let me walk you through it. Read these books. I'm like, okay, thanks, mom. I was really lucky in that regard.
Speaker1:
[53:12] I wanted to circle back around to something you mentioned earlier on. Um just talking about like feeling like you're from somewhere else or you're you have something else within you that kind of thing uh one potential explanation there was this guy named uh david jacobs professor david jacobs he used to be on like coast to coast am and shit like that a lot but he he was kind of the origin of and they touch on this a lot in the x-files with the uh the idea of like the alien human hybrids and he called them hubrids like to distinguish like there are hybrids there are full-blown aliens there's people and then that when they start fucking with like splicing us together whatever that may mean it doesn't like i think there's a tendency in sci-fi to like get into they're literally going in and cutting up our dna or like inseminating scully with a baby and all that kind of stuff maybe i don't know but it could also be like a like a spiritual element to it as well it could be like you your soul is older you know and And in the process of reincarnation, maybe, you know, you land on this earth and you're around a bunch of other people who are younger souls or souls that are stuck in a particular plane. Maybe yours is further. Just lots of different ways of putting it. But in his perspective, it's like, no, there are lots of people walking around among us right now, indistinguishable from people who are hybrids. And.
Speaker1:
[54:39] How he arrived at that, I'd have to dig back into. But, like,
Speaker1:
[54:44] tell me more about, like, your experience with, like, talking about that. Have you talked with the psychiatrist or the psychologist, the parapsychologist about, like, what that experience is? And do they have an explanation for it?
Speaker0:
[54:57] No, she didn't have, like, an actual explanation. She said, like, I feel because, as there's been said, I believe in the genetical aspect, as you said. And for example, my mother is a huge Catholic, but she always has had this special energy within her. She actually studied Reiki and different ways to canonize her energy. So she was never a hardcore believer in anything, really. She was actually a believer of God and all that stuff. But at the same time, she believed there's other forces, right?
Speaker1:
[55:36] You kind of have to if you're Catholic. Like that's one of the beautiful things about the Catholic faith is like you have to be open to a lot of stuff that, you know, sounds crazy actually, but probably it's a lens, you know, there's the Christian lens of looking at this stuff and still being open-minded to it. Whereas here in the States, especially in the South, a lot of people are like, Anything that's not explicitly laid out in the Bible is not real. And if you bring it up, you're going straight to hell. And the shadow person is covering up his horns with his hat or whatever.
Speaker0:
[56:12] Yeah, and I always ask her, like, why if you say you don't believe in this, if you're a Catholic, why are you saying that there's other energies? Why are you trying to canalize this energy? Like, always trying to understand. But then you don't believe in aliens or stuff like that. So that was always a conversation with her. But when I spoke with this parapsychologist.
Speaker0:
[56:38] She didn't have an actual direct explanation on that matter. She only said, like, you need to take the time to train that energy that you have. Like you need to focus on that because it's there right if you don't do anything with it nothing will happen you still may suck energy people's uh energy from people without realizing but other than that you won't be able to actually do anything with it uh she only said that i had this special light sort of thing um the shining maybe yeah even uh but yeah that's uh the only thing that she said and i always remember that because that marked me i try to there's a light like there's the ouija board there's like the cup game here that uh you lay a cup and you do all this stuff that's something that when you are a child and you're a teenager and you have uh no idea of the world you sometimes try um and i remember even even trying that i remember like feeling that i could even be a medium or feeling the energy because i will feel the energy around me.
Speaker0:
[58:07] I used to be alone and trying to talk to things I felt were around, never receiving an answer but I felt the chilling, I felt...
Speaker0:
[58:20] Things were there, right? Yeah. But like I said, I was very curious about many things. Never really got an answer. Never actually took the time to understand myself. That's one of the things that I regret because over time, not actually doing anything, like I feel that I lost a bit of that sensitivity, right? Because even if I'm involved or I try to learn or do things, I feel like these things happen actually randomly because I don't know how to canalize this stuff. I don't want to canalize anything evil or something like that. I will never play with a Ouija board. She said, never touch a Ouija board. Don't do anything about that Ouija board because that's not a game. That's serious stuff. So you don't have to do anything with it. And I took that seriously.
Speaker1:
[59:16] Good that's good advice stick to that
Speaker0:
[59:19] Yeah and I've been giving that advice always because I know I saw things happening while doing that even one day it was like at this school party when I was in, we were like I said 11 or 12 years old, some guys were trying to, our school was our primary school was like big with two holes on the sides and on one of the holes it was all empty and we only had like chairs and a table there. So they were trying to play this cup game. We were just, I don't know, four or five kids there trying to do that, doing our own stuff until some kind of bright light, when there was no light at all there, just flew and got inside one of the classrooms. And I said okay let's stop this, I just left of course, in fear but.
Speaker0:
[1:00:21] Many things that made me believe that I have something, but never actually search for an actual explanation. I don't know why. Maybe I was not trying to see that it is real. Maybe I was trying to, in a way, protect myself. But at the same time, I'm curious. At the same time, people with me say, don't learn about that because that's going to be dangerous for me. So people always say, if you know or if you call for these things, they are not going to hunt you only. They are going to hunt me or they are going to hunt anything that you have around. If you're taken, if you're abducted, they are going to come for me afterwards. Stuff like that. Things that happen with people I met over the years. But yeah I'm just making what I have or what I felt for granted and then just walking by it not not having an actual explanation or maybe because I never met someone that can actually give me an actual answer that I can actually trust enough to say okay you are the right person you know this for real you may maybe you can give me an actual answer and maybe I'm, nothing that i'm feeling is what i'm feeling maybe something else but i never met that person yet so i'm still to learn how.
Speaker1:
[1:01:49] Are you incorporating your your own experiences into the game like the the experience of knowing fully inside of yourself that like i experienced this i'm seeing this i'm feeling this and no one else has the answers that i'm looking for that and for in my case it was like and they're all gonna think I'm crazy if I even fucking bring it up uh is a really isolating feeling and you cope with that however you do you know like you said avoidance like for me it was just fucking drinking my ass off smoking weed all that i could not be i couldn't it wasn't even like a chemical dependence all the time it was like i don't want to just live in reality because it's too much like it's it's so fucking overwhelming to constantly feel that way that I just needed to like be numb or like take 10% off, just make it a little bit easier to like get up and just go pretend everything's okay during the day. So I'm curious, like how has that experience shaped the gameplay and the story that you're trying to tell?
Speaker0:
[1:02:53] Well, it helps a lot because I'm the game designer on the game as well and actually help with, we work with Unreal Engine, so I help with how to set things up and help the developer on setting these things up. So I always keep going and trying and reviewing how things feel, trying to ask how I would feel or see that, taking that, trying to mix my own experiences with the experiences that we have and the information that we have.
Speaker0:
[1:03:28] So it's a long process to actually feel, well, okay, this is showing what I feel, or this is showing not even only my experiences, the experiences of the team. In our team, we had people experiencing things, people actually sometimes even going through different depression states that we want to show that on the game, right? So to shape that, it takes a lot. That's why we actually use Unreal instead of Unity, even though it's more complicated and we had no knowledge at all of Unreal Engine or how that worked, we were learning back in 2023 on how these things work but we wanted to, use this because we feel it's the engine that helped us shape the way we actually see that so I always, when I try to create this, the game designed for the different situations in the game. I tried to be Ray himself and tried to feel, okay, if I'm in this situation, how would I feel in this situation? Right? If I'm seeing things, if I'm seeing that my family is disappearing, if I'm alone in a room.
Speaker0:
[1:04:50] And again, one of the things that we talked about with the researches is how the paranormal situations connect with the UFO situations and are actually maybe the same thing. It's all connected, right? Yeah.
Speaker0:
[1:05:05] So I'm connecting those things, maybe those things that happened to me, maybe these shadow people is actually something that was just, I don't know, flying around over the house, drinking Coke and watching me while I was sleeping, I don't know. So I'm trying to add all of that with the different post-process that the game has, working very closely with the sound producer. He also had his experiences of the music, everything has to make me feel something. Because I won't be able to make people feel anything if those things doesn't feel real to me, right? So it's a big process.
Speaker1:
[1:05:50] It's very important like and i think from from the point of view of like trying to craft an experience of any kind games more so than most mediums but i mean any art that you're creating the question is like how does it make someone feel you know and you're trying to it's a fucking tough road like same same boat here from the game design perspective is like i'm always thinking about what is the what is it in here in my heart or my you know my feelings that i'm trying to pass on to someone else that communication as a whole past this problem it's like i'm never satisfied with the conversation unless i feel like the other person is picking up on what i'm actually dropping like what am i really saying what am i what am i trying to get across and oftentimes like just you know if you could just tell someone the experience kids. They would understand it at face value right then and there, or if you could just telepathically put it into your head, you wouldn't need to make a fucking game. You wouldn't need to write a book about it. You wouldn't need to make a movie about it. You wouldn't have to express it in such this grandiose way that other people can understand it because it would be easy to just feel satisfied with, like, I've got it out. Other people get it. Moving on. Next thing.
Speaker1:
[1:07:07] Um so it's like a struggle with i think every every great artist has that problem and and they tend to be somewhat emotionally disturbed people you know like you've got to be a little bit crazy to be an artist but it's because you you it's you have something in your soul that you're trying to get out to other people um so that they can experience it we live in a you know a very post-modernist world where like i was listening to this thing yesterday talking about like the death of the author whereas like nowadays i think a lot of people even game designers that i've had on the fucking show uh got into this big debate about like yeah what was your intention well you know how do you want this to make people feel and then and i think we have this tendency now because of the post-modernist philosophy that the western world sort of lives under like what i feel is not important you know it's what the audience makes of it and how they and that's okay if someone feels that way who am i to tell them what to do with their own art but even you know from like a from a consumer perspective like they don't they don't seem to care about what the intentions or the feelings of the the author the creator of whatever it is that they're reading playing seeing had they sort of separate those two things we use that phrase all the time like to separate the art from the artist but i mean like they're that's like separating the world from god like
Speaker1:
[1:08:25] Yeah absolutely yeah like it's it's like if we are all created by alien overlords who are just watching us for their own entertainment floating around in the sky or whatever like well their intentions kind of matter in terms of understanding the experience that we're having otherwise like what are we doing here and you could just choose to be veiled and and we use that term a lot like people you know just i'm just gonna ignore all that and try to focus on this and then you have other people who are like no i'm trying to figure out the big mystery i want to know what's going on up there if it is aliens i want to talk to them and see what their intentions are maybe they have something nice to say maybe they have nothing nice to say and that's also useful information because we need to have like a human rebellion but we'll never do that as long as we have this illusion that they're not there uh what's that the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing you that he doesn't exist and that's true like if there was a devil I'm not saying that there is or isn't, but like if there was, and you don't believe that he exists, it makes it a lot easier for him to fuck with you.
Speaker1:
[1:09:30] Um yeah so um circling back around to your your experiences kind of like trying to you know find different ways to communicate with the thing or the whatever it is that you're trying to find like the the ouija board stuff you know maybe you're maybe you're fucking with tarot cards or whatever i like tarot cards i i don't like ouija boards tarot cards don't scare me maybe it's because i understand them better but like a ouija board sort of like a radio where it's like you're browsing frequencies and like you could get you know the you could get a cool rock song or and you could also get something that's like hey can i can i come in and then the mistake that a lot of people make is like as soon as they find oh something interesting yeah don't like that's that's a fucking end all like you're you're done like it's in the have you read the the nefarious plot or seen the movie nefarious no
Speaker0:
[1:10:29] Not that one.
Speaker1:
[1:10:29] It's a it's a cool really cool movie if any anybody i recommend giving it a watch or read the book that it's based on it's called a nefarious plot but there's this psychologist who's like going to a prison and he has to decide there's this guy who's on death row prisoner and he's got to decide if the dude is insane or if he's evil you know like if he's just a bad person and if he's crazy then legally they can't execute him but if he's not crazy he's just a bad seed then they have to execute him and the guy claims to be he's like i am i am possessed by this demon this ancient demon named nefarious or nefariamus or whatever you know in latin and like throughout the course of the thing like the the psychiatrist is totally skeptical like he's a he's a complete atheist and the the demon is like telling him
Speaker1:
[1:11:25] Like, oh, well, if you don't believe in me, then you would have no problem with inviting me to come into your soul, right? Because you have nothing to lose just to prove your point. And then he's like, fine, go ahead. And then that's the trigger of the movie. He's like, oh, well, he fucked that up. He shouldn't have done that. But, yeah, like, did you ever feel like you, like, successfully communicated with the shadow that you were talking to? or did you get any information from it or was it just completely veiled all the time?
Speaker0:
[1:12:00] No, not really. Actually, I tried, but I stopped myself from pushing forward because I felt that if I pushed more, something bad would happen worse than the things that happened to me so i i was always on this struggle of trying to push more to understand more to see more but at the same time i say yeah but there's a limit right as you said with the wiji board there's a limit and there's a common mistake that not even inviting sometimes you just get scared of what's happening and you don't actually realize what you are doing, until everything is screwed up. So, but yeah, even though I tried for several years to understand and sometimes even I tried to call for these things because after I had all these experiences, there was like a chunk of years where I had nothing, right? Nothing specific or nothing that big like it was before.
Speaker0:
[1:13:17] And I was always in the search for feeling this again. Even though I knew that I would be afraid of that or that is something, maybe it's not right for me to do that. I had this feeling that I had to know, right? That when I was young, when I was a child, when I was growing up, I was not prepared for this. Now I'm prepared. Now I have more tools. Now I have more weapons even. But I can't have access. Why I can't have access? Is that because I have the weapons to actually protect myself? And back then I didn't. That was always a struggle for me. Yeah. Still, I believe, and still, like, when I feel energies or when I feel things, I try to get a closer look. But I don't push that too far. Because of the people I've been around, I mean, at some point I felt like, you mentioned Mulder. Mulder is like a good example because there was points in my life that I felt like him, right? that even though you can have friends, you can have family, they actually won't believe or won't understand how you are feeling. So at the same time, you can be surrounded by a thousand of people that are actually alone with these feelings and with these situations.
Speaker0:
[1:14:44] I wouldn't see myself back then speaking freely about this on a podcast, for example. There's going to be a lot of people that will believe that. Even in my team, there's people that's skeptical in our team about the UFO situations. It's interesting because when I talk to them, they say, yes, I actually don't want to believe that this is real. I prefer to choose that this doesn't exist. And then I don't have to deal with that. I forget about that. I don't have to fear what may happen. And maybe in that way I can protect myself from that but as you say it's at the same time it's like, controversial in the way that maybe not believing makes it easier for these things to happen to you and I always feel that, if there's a UFO sightseeing in a place where the team is, I'm not the one who is going to see that maybe that person that doesn't believe in anything is the one that sees that and maybe disregards the situation because they don't actually want to believe that's real.
Speaker1:
[1:16:02] There's this priest by the name of Father Dan Reel, Reel, like R-E-E-H-I-L, if anybody wants to look him up. And he's sort of like the popular guy in the Catholic Church now who is going around and explaining exorcism and demonic possession to people who are curious about it. So he's sort of the face of that. I'm not saying he's Malachi Martin, like the chief exorcist or whatever of the church. I don't know. But he had a really great point of view. I think it was on the Sean Ryan's podcast where he was asking him, like, hey, what's the deal with all this holy water and crosses? And do you really need all that stuff to deal with this? And his answer was like, no, you don't.
Speaker1:
[1:16:53] You could just walk into a battle with no sword and no armor on if you wanted to. But these, these are like, these are my tool belt. And like, whether they're symbolic or like they literally have an effect on in his, you know, he's always going to say the demons or whatever, but whatever it is that I'm dealing with, I like phenomena better because we don't know.
Speaker1:
[1:17:16] But if this causes a reaction that protects me, you know, while I'm having this, this battle with it, then it would be better to, walk into you know a war wearing a full suit of armor and with a crossbow and a sword on my back and an extra dagger on my leg and all this kind of shit too um in your experience from what you're talking about and in mine too man uh for real i think that the uh the skepticism causing you to just like walk into these situations like with no with no protection at all to just oh i'm just being open-minded i wonder what happens or whatever you could very easily find yourself like like in a in a video game or whatever like oh you've stumbled upon a wayfarer on the highway do you want to get off your horse and ask him how he's doing and then like oh it's an ambush now you're fucking surrounded by dudes that are beating you to death with it i play in kingdom come deliverance if you can't tell um but yeah like that's such a common occurrence where you like naivety and not as an insult but just simply like not knowing what the potential things that you're but you know you could end up dealing with or just not being prepared for whatever may come could leave you pretty in pretty bad shape if you were uh if you're going camping and you're like well i'm just gonna try to hack it with nothing but a hatchet i'm not gonna take a not gonna take a tent not gonna take a pocket knife not gonna take any flint no matches no lighter and just rough it in the woods like you can do that
Speaker1:
[1:18:43] But it's a lot harder to walk away from those woods not eaten by a bear or, you know, dying of dysentery or whatever.
Speaker0:
[1:18:52] And there's a stand like, I don't know if it happened to you also, but when you walk into a place that there's something that's not right in a way of saying, your body reacts to it, right? Like you move yourself different. There's a different stance on you when you realize there's something else. And that's the protection actually being rigor you don't even realize about that maybe you realize after sometimes i realize at the same moment i this feeling is telling me that i have to stay here i can stay here but i have to stay here in a with a different mood with a different way so yeah it's.
Speaker1:
[1:19:30] I to the folks listening to this if you have that experience i recommend leaving um according to barry fitzgerald you got about 20 seconds before that wears off and you are potentially compromised so there there's studies with the with people seeing uap phenomena um if you if you have that feeling like the hair on the back of your neck starts standing up or you're just like sweating i'm like i'm uncomfortable this isn't good this isn't good and then you just like push past that which a lot of people do then they've literally shown through studies like even putting like ekgs on people's heads and stuff that at that point
Speaker1:
[1:20:17] People start to have very different ideas of what it is that they experienced.
Speaker1:
[1:20:20] Whereas if they just saw it and got immediately out, they report the same thing. So it appears that whatever this phenomenon is,
Speaker1:
[1:20:30] Whatever title you choose to assign to it, does have the ability to change or alter our perception, almost like in a men in black way where you didn't see that, or you saw something else, and it makes you sound crazy, where two dudes are standing on the side of the road, maybe you and your friend are standing there seeing this floaty orb thing or in an alley of something and you stay too long and hey man what did you see and then they say something different from what you saw or they i didn't see anything or whatever and then you're but i saw this both of you are actually at least in barry fitzgerald's uh point of view both of you have had your memory altered so that you're not seeing the same thing whereas if had you just walked away you might have both told each other i saw this and you're like yes that's exactly it and that that seems to anecdotally of course that seems to be the case like when i when i hear people talk about this stuff like the longer they stick around the more and more disagreement there is amongst them which just causes you to sound like you're a fucking idiot if you two go to the police and say i saw this what did you see what did you see sounds like you two were both fucking smoking dope maybe y'all should not do that or whatever like but no we were totally sober at the time is like well did you escape from a mental hospital this morning because we heard that someone did
Speaker1:
[1:21:49] No that wasn't me oh pretty sure it was you and then next thing you know you're locked up in the asylum and they're sticking you with needles or whatever you're tied to the you know straight jacket with that kind of shit you gotta be careful with that but i mean that's what the research seems to indicate um
Speaker1:
[1:22:08] But it's a, it's odd times, man, to talk about this stuff, because I think, I feel like for most of human history, there hasn't been like the, the research necessary to understand it from a scientific point of view. There's always been this sort of like, and not to throw any of it out, but I'm just like, there's always like this religious or spiritual lens that this is dealt with through.
Speaker1:
[1:22:31] And now it's just seeming to get to the point maybe in the last 30 or so years where folks who would not touch this with a 10-foot pole like if you're a serious scientist like and you start well i'm just going to take government money and go like look at the paranormal or whatever like they're like yeah that's a waste of money don't do that so this research isn't getting done unless someone comes along and does the work and funds it um we're just now at like the tip of the iceberg with that so that's what's so fascinating about it to me though it's like wow you know we we live in a really great time where you you've had this experience and you have the ability to even look at it through a different lens other than just like oh my god the shadow person is a demon he's uh i have to go straight to the church and confess all my sins to you know the priest or whatever yeah
Speaker0:
[1:23:21] Yeah and we had this conversation uh with the researchers that people or humanity in general doesn't... There's a belief that I personally have. I want to say this is a personal belief, just in case, but I feel that humans sometimes don't want to believe that there's something out there that's more intelligent than us, right?
Speaker1:
[1:23:47] Right, because we're special.
Speaker0:
[1:23:49] That's right. Why... Why are we going to believe there's someone that's better than me? Why are we going to believe that this entity has some special technology that we can't do? If we are humans, we did all this over the thousands of years we are here on Earth. Why do they have power that we don't have? And that's where fear comes. That's when people actually don't want to understand things. Because if they actually take one step forward and say, hey, this is real, then that means that they are lower, right?
Speaker0:
[1:24:33] On the scale pyramid, on the food chain, you are not on the top anymore. There's something that's bigger than you. And what does that mean for me, right? As a human being, what does that mean that there's something else that's bigger than me? And I guess it revolves around that situation. But as you say, it's great times with the freedom of information. Now we have a lot of information, so to say, that we actually acquire from different topics, from different subjects, not even UFO itself. So all the UAP NHI phenomena, anything you can actually get the hands of it, But still people have the ability to choose if they believe in the actual scientific document, in the actual scientific research, or they still believe that's not real and it's just people trying to be famous saying this is real, right?
Speaker1:
[1:25:41] One of my number one pet peeves in the world is when someone just dismisses
Speaker1:
[1:25:46] someone's research. It's like, oh, that's pseudoscience. And then I'm like, it could be, but why do you say that? It's like well there's no scientific evidence that there's uh you know ever been any
Speaker1:
[1:25:58] Visitation from something outside of this world to this world like there's no evidence of aliens why are you saying that like from from what fucking high horse pedestal thing like how did you arrive at that conclusion it was like well i can offer up other potential solutions to that so therefore that's not real i'm like interesting you know um i not not throwing anybody under the bus at all but like i had a dr dr justin sledge on a few months ago and he's a you know researcher into uh like esoteric and occult philosophy and he's you know he's one of these dudes that like has 600 year old books sitting in his house like that kind of thing so he's very well read and he's very smart um and his youtube channel is incredible it's called esoterica but he's very at least outwardly very skeptical of you know stuff that would be considered by a lot of people to be pseudoscience so i brought up like the 12 planets by zachariah sitchin with him and
Speaker1:
[1:27:03] I don't know what to make of that i do know that the primary reason to be skeptical of it is like who could possibly read ancient sumerian and then even if they could like their interpretations of it could be wildly different so zachariah sitchin having all of this like deep insight into the you know the anunnaki and all you know they're and then they did this and then they did that and this is the way that that maps to the bible like i i find all that very fascinating but
Speaker1:
[1:27:31] A good question is like, how well could this guy really read Sumerian? It's a, it's a isolated language. So like, even if you could read Aramaic or Akkadian, that does not mean that it's easy to map that onto Sumerian. It's like trying to read Finnish now, if you only have the experience of like other Germanic languages in the area. Right. Very different.
Speaker1:
[1:27:53] But he's like, well, I'm not taking anything he says seriously because I think he's just a pseudo scholar. I'm like, why is he just a pseudo scholar? How is he any different than fucking thomas aquinas you know like yeah how is he any different than than plato or aristotle i'm not saying that he's like as great as them i just mean like why do you take all this stuff super seriously but this guy is a fucking idiot or like eric von daniken who i find i personally really like chariots of the gods not because i think it's 100 fact but because he presents everything as like as a question he's not saying like a hundred percent this is what i'm trying to convince you of he's just like here's a bunch of different things that caused me to ask these questions and why are we not asking these questions and the answer is because people think you're crazy for even asking it because we have like a very particular point of view about like this is how human history went and it's been a constant you know build from cave people to aggregarian society up to where we are now and there's never have been anything greater than this and then i'm like what about the fucking pyramids what about this statue in you know fucking i don't know somewhere in peru that looks like a dude sitting in a fucking rocket ship about to blast off like how do you what is that i don't know but it's a it's a worthy question and to just dismiss all of that as a pseudo scholarship is kind of annoying to me like it's one thing to make an assertion it's another thing to offer a a point of view
Speaker1:
[1:29:20] Or even just offer a question like how do we explain that and then if you start mapping it all together then you arrive in his case it was like ancient aliens i don't know maybe what we call the gods were in fact some sort of superior being from the heavens that that it all sounds to me like the same thing uh it just very much sounds like you're you're just using different words and that goes back to tower of babylon shit like wow yeah they didn't want us to be able to talk to each other clearly they alohim they multiple but you know here we are so tell me tell me about like the the types of games movies tv shows other i mean we can talk about the x-files forever but like stuff that entertains you and maybe inspires the the art that you're creating
Speaker0:
[1:30:13] Well, I've been a huge fan of horror since always. So I love, most of the things that I love are horror from the 80s, from the 90s. Of course, I've seen Fire in the Sky, I've seen The Forkka, anything related to the phenomena. But besides that, I'm not a big fan of slasher things or movies, not that much.
Speaker1:
[1:30:40] The only exceptions I would give to slasher films are like The First Nightmare on Elm Street and Halloween. Other than that, I think they're all fucking silly.
Speaker0:
[1:30:51] Yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm more into psychological horror. Even I study to become a filmmaker, so I had to see a lot of movies, different type of movies. But my love goes for anything that's psychological horror, Asian horror, European horror sometimes European horror is more dark and sometimes it's like French horror sometimes has a lot of gore in it but there's this psychological, strength or aspect even though it's a lot of blood that you don't find somewhere else.
Speaker1:
[1:31:34] Scandinavians make a lot of really good stuff they've got it going on with the film world as small as they are and is honestly is the most secular fucking place in the world I've ever been was all over Scandinavia. And yet there's just this incredible art scene. It's like let the right one in or, or, you know, midsummer, like some of the stuff that they've, they've put out from that area is really, really deep.
Speaker0:
[1:31:59] Yeah, it's different. It's special. I don't know if different is the word, but it's special in its own way. If you talk about Asian horror, people always mention Japan, but Thailand has a lot of incredible things with Asian horror or even Korea, China. There's a lot of things.
Speaker1:
[1:32:25] Korea and Indonesia have really come up in the world of filmmaking in the past 15 years or so.
Speaker0:
[1:32:31] Yeah, and because of the cultural backpack they have, there's a lot of things that they believe in, and they put all of that into their movies, right? All their legends, urban legends, there's a whole cultural side that they embrace, like the ancient cultural things that they still believe in. And they put all of that in games, in movies, in everything that they make. And it's really interesting how those things come up, because it's things that you can actually find on this other part of the world, but maybe people doesn't talk too much about it. Right so all of that it's part of how i was uh raised by the tv era in the 90s like of course i watch i don't know besides the x-files i watch buffy angel and all of that vampire stuff back in the day right um but yeah i always felt this special connection with with psychological horror and the things that are more or closer to things that can be real.
Speaker0:
[1:33:58] In ways that people don't want to talk about it. So I think it's more or less like that. I even watch, I don't know, C-type movies. C-type movies, it's all teenagers running around and a lot of blood, but sometimes there's something interesting and fun there.
Speaker0:
[1:34:18] But yeah, then I can go back to movies from older times, like the first alien movies, Like when the aliens before Roswell, the aliens were not this, the greys. We have the Venusians and all these beliefs that are not common, right? Because after Roswell, after the Roswell incident, every alien is a Cree alien, right?
Speaker1:
[1:34:43] I have to dig it up for you, but I have a photo of myself. I went to the Mopat Museum. It's in Seattle, you know. And I have a picture of me standing right next to the original models for the giant spacesuits in The Day the Earth Stood Still, like the original movie, and they're so cool. But yeah, before there was this sort of canon of what an alien was, it was just all, you know, like, I mean, there sort of was a canon, but it was coming from, you know, H.G. Wells sort of fiction, you know, like, without there being, I don't know, film, newspapers, photographs, that kind of stuff. It was just people sort of fantasizing about what would the aliens on the moon be like or whatever, that kind of thing. Very interesting stuff.
Speaker0:
[1:35:30] Yeah, and I actually asked these researchers, like, what are the aspects that you never see in movies? What are they, or films or books? and she always said that it's all about the actual, like I said, the original aliens, right? Like the first information we ever had about aliens, about these people that claim to be from Venus or Venusian and they were tall and blonde and with white skin, very white skin, and that's something that you don't usually see. Then among time you've seen, I don't know, reptilians or you've seen a lot of different things, but it's not always the other species, if you want to call it, like the ones that were actually here before the actual grace, right, before everything that started back then.
Speaker1:
[1:36:36] Yeah, it's one of those strange things where, like we were talking, I think earlier in the beginning of this, but like the different cultural lenses that people sort of report and view the phenomena that we're talking about from.
Speaker1:
[1:36:51] And there's an argument to be made that like none of what we think is true, you know, in terms of like photographic evidence or whatever is even what we're really dealing with. Um like barry had talked about like a you know these photographs from like seance tables where you can like kind of see what appears to be a gray alien standing over whereas in some other situation you may see a shinigami or a jinn or whatever a ghost a dark figure whatever it is and there's this idea that it sort of manifests to you or to the viewer or you know whatever
Speaker1:
[1:37:28] In whatever way makes sense to them you know and whatever whatever is the most effective way to like get you to understand it there's so much in science fiction star trek i'm a huge star trek guy if you can't tell by the tattoo and all that stuff but yeah like this idea that i have come down to you in a form that uh that you can comprehend because you wouldn't be able to understand my real form and even even from a biblical point of view there's you know this god cannot show anyone what he really looks like because it would be too much for your eyes you'd burn your eyes out of the socket or whatever so you could only view him from the back or from the side or it's always obscured um and i wonder if just the evolution of science fiction as a as a genre and the canon that's sort of built up on that is the reason why people see that stuff it's like you know kind of playing both sides of it it's not necessarily that you're hallucinating and you're seeing something that doesn't exist, but the form that you're seeing it in is influenced by whatever cultural lens that the phenomenon itself thinks would be most palatable to you.
Speaker1:
[1:38:34] I don't know um and there's also like is it trying in your shadow person case like is it deliberately trying to be terrifying to you like maybe it can just change its form it will make you see it however is the the most effective it getting you to be a fucking afraid of it i don't know but there appears to be a lot of that especially when you're talking about cryptids you know the antler man the lizard man the fucking uh the loch ness monster bigfoot the yeti there's there's so many examples of that i honestly mostly only know about like north american cryptids so i'm like if there's more you know in south america that i'm not even aware of i don't know but there are all these different forms that it takes and it's like the question arises like is every single one of these people fucking you know crazy off their rocker hallucinating uh is there a canon that sort of gets bent around it where it's like you know people talk about bigfoot so therefore in this area people see bigfoot whereas if they're in this area they see mothman i don't know and also like is it i don't is it is it something that's like purposefully trying to screw with our minds and the project doorway stuff it seems at least to indicate that that might be the case um uh you've seen the documentary hellier no
Speaker0:
[1:39:54] I haven't oh.
Speaker1:
[1:39:55] It it's cool uh it's on amazon and i think maybe on youtube as well at least the first season was on youtube there's just it's just two seasons but a group of canadian investigators end up they're going to kentucky and that's not too far from where i am now i'm in south carolina but there's all these ancient stories even in europe and also in north america about um people use different words but goblins or tommy knockers or whatever like these little sort of creatures that only come out in the night they seem to dwell maybe this is where we get the idea of dwarves from also in scandinavian mythology but they they live in tunnels and mine shafts and in that area in the appalachian mountains there's tons of abandoned mines and caves and tunnels and stuff like that and
Speaker1:
[1:40:46] Shitloads of people in those areas have all these like kind of local legends about these things that they see and so these investigators are just kind of like looking into it like what is that trying to put the whole picture together because we don't know but they they're like the you see it portrayed in even folklore and in fantasy stuff goblins are like short they have greener looking skin they have big eyes and they have these little pointy ears that look like that um so for the viewers i'm holding my hands up like they're like their ears coming off of my head um and just the fact that like in multiple places in the world at different times people have seen the same sort of thing and reported on it and they have they just have different names for it what is that but that's a really cool one too um yeah
Speaker0:
[1:41:33] Mentioning that just sorry to cut you here but uh we have here in south america actually we are actually in argentina we have a belief um there's this legend called the Pomberito. A Pomberito is like this dwarf in a way, but it's like with a beard and has a big belly and it's like a little drunk guy that actually steals children. Like there's been situations of missing children. Yeah, like the Leprechaun. There's been situations of missing children and situations where people actually saw these entities, these small entities and seeing them run away. There's always, of course, deepfakes. There's even games coming from here about that special entity as well. And it's like you say, it's a different belief, but sometimes it's actually the same. It depends on how you look at it or how you perceive that or how your mind wants to create that form for you. But maybe it's all the same thing, right?
Speaker1:
[1:42:40] Right yeah totally like who knows but the similarities are just so out there even i mean like uh like puerto rico and mexico have even in the southern united states like the chupacabra this this thing that sucks the blood out of goats or whatever but it looks the same it's little dude pointy ears big eyes seems to seems to prey on living things um Um, But strikingly, like in your case, there's so few video games that make the attempt to portray anything realistic. It makes sense, you know, from a money-making standpoint. You want to make something that's fun and entertaining. But you have like, destroy all humans over here, and then you have, who are you, on a completely different end of the spectrum of like, alien video games or whatever. So it's so refreshing to just see people trying to take it a little bit more seriously. Do you think that because you said that the game is like more centered around the family do you think that you'll have a portrayal of what the phenomena is in the game and like what that would be influenced by at all
Speaker0:
[1:43:52] Yeah I mean the idea is that you will follow this family, till the end right till actually Ray understands what's actually happening and it's more about what the actual player feels or feels about the game itself and the actual situation. So in the end, we play a lot with what's real and what's not, right? Because you as a player will decide what's real.
Speaker0:
[1:44:24] The idea is to portray the actual situation of what will happen with the abduction. If that's a case that will be solved in the end or not, maybe all this situation is actually not what you actually see or feel and you will realize in the end or you will choose in the end if this was real or not. There's a huge path we are taking with this because what we are trying to do is something that, While you work or while you play or experience, I like to call this more than a game, I like to call it a psychological experience, right? Because what we are trying to do is to recreate something where at certain points during your gameplay, you will have to choose what you actually believe in, right? Right. So if you are standing on a place and you see three things happening at the same time, how would you feel or which is the thing that you will feel is real? And then you will follow that belief. Right. So in the end, you will see if this if you're a non-believer, maybe the answers that you will see or the ending that you will see will be different than if you're actually a believer. And maybe you're an experiencer and as an experiencer you will follow the things in a different way.
Speaker0:
[1:45:52] It's a difficult thing to do and it's something that we're working on really hard but was.
Speaker0:
[1:46:01] Just speaking of me from the team I want to see how the actual gamers experience that right? Understanding. In a way it's like, it's also research right? Understanding how as humans we experience and we feel this, right? Of course it's going to be different. If you're a streamer and you're playing the game with a huge audience, of course you want to have these comic reliefs. You're going to play it's not going to be the same if you are alone in your room with all these fears, with all these experiences that you had I don't know. And seeing that the things that you are playing are things that maybe you actually experience in your life and never had an explanation for. Of course, we're not going to give any specific explanation because we are not scientists. We are not researchers. We are just using what we learn. We are using science and we are using the actual research. We won't be able to give you an answer on why you are experiencing these things. But maybe this is a safe place for you to feel that you are not alone with what you are feeling, right?
Speaker0:
[1:47:17] This is actually happening. And that's why we want to portrait every single part of an abduction situation. Not only from the abductee.
Speaker0:
[1:47:29] We can do fire in the sky and show you the scene when you are taken and everything is happening.
Speaker0:
[1:47:39] There's going to be scenes where you are going to see how things happened to certain characters, even to Rey himself. But you will be the judge for that situation, right? You are going to decide if this is actually happening or not within the game. And you are going to actually be able to have the option to see if this is actually happening, why, and why the family will feel this, right? You talk about the feeling of lust. The feeling of lust is different. It's not the same if someone dies in your family. It's not the same if someone gets murdered. And it's totally not the same feeling of lust or post-traumatic stress if there's someone missing.
Speaker1:
[1:48:36] We're going to make a little bit of an English correction for the sake of the audience. Loss. Lust is like sexual desire, and I don't want them to get confused. But, I mean, people do experience that differently. It's okay.
Speaker0:
[1:48:50] Yeah, it's lust. There we go. Yeah, the feeling of lust. Yeah. But, yeah, the feeling of lust is not the same. When these things happen that when something happened when you're losing someone you don't know what happens you don't know where they went if they left you if they were taken, because this thing happened suddenly, right? And that's why you walk with this feeling like you mentioned Mulder with his sister, right? He actually seen that Ray Roswell didn't see what happened. So he doesn't know if his wife left. He doesn't know if she was taken. He's a skeptical, so he won't believe in anything that's out of this world. And that's the struggle for him, right? Because he doesn't want to believe. He wants to believe his wife is alive. And that's the difference between how he experienced loss between the actual situations that may happen when there's a loss in the same situation, right?
Speaker1:
[1:50:18] Yeah. Yeah. So how are the researchers that you're working for, how have they informed the story? Like, have they had perspectives of like, you should do it this way, or like, this would be more realistic or anything like that at all? What's their input process?
Speaker0:
[1:50:38] Yeah, we actually get together. We do these interviews with them, right? Understanding if we are on the right path. So we show how we are creating things. There's a whole process, right? Because first we have the information, we get the information from them. Then the root of it is the actual research that they do. There's only one museum, that's a UFO museum here in Argentina. They are the owners of the UFO museum and they have relics and stuff from different parts of Argentina and South America too.
Speaker0:
[1:51:24] So they provide the actual research and the actual information then we review this with our psychologist advisor and then we pour all of this into the written story because we wrote a novel with all the information and trying to, transform this into the art that we'll have on the game, right? So then once we have everything set up, then we create everything within the engine and within the game. And then we show this back to the researchers so they can actually see that if they have any inputs, if there's something we may need to change, if there's something... Because information is moving all the time, right? Right. There's recent developments on information that was declassified from Argentina, from a special case in a place called Córdoba, of people that experienced while driving on a truck, they experienced something that would be called as teleportation situation. Because they were on a road and then all of a sudden they were in front of a board that was like miles away from where they were actually driving. That was a case that was recently declassified by the Air Force in Argentina.
Speaker0:
[1:52:52] So all these rich things help on shaping the game. We're trying to create something with the information that's already out there because, of course, if we keep adding information, this is going to be something that will never end, right? As a game designer, I'm also the producer, so I have to cut things because if we keep adding things, you know, you'll never finish, right? It's a very thin line.
Speaker1:
[1:53:25] I know you're paying a lot. Yeah.
Speaker0:
[1:53:29] But yeah, but we always go back and forth. Actually, we are going to, there's a recent international congress. I think that's the English word, right? Pardon my English. That's an international UFO congress that will happen near the museum in Argentina now in May.
Speaker0:
[1:53:51] And the idea is that we'll be able to present this to different researchers of how we are creating this so they can actually see and have an input for us as well. I was trying to connect with different people and still trying to connect with different researchers and trying to look for other researchers because, of course, everyone has their own point of view. So everyone does their own research. There's research that says this is evil. There's research that says this is good. This research that says there's no evil or good. So we like to hear the whole spectrum of different situations, read the whole research, and see where's these common points that we can follow so we can actually portrait and show everything in the best way possible. Of course, we are going to miss things. We are not experts. We are just lovers of this phenomena, and we try to understand and learn, and we try to make this information available for everyone, right? Because it's not for all generations.
Speaker0:
[1:55:12] Kids are not going to consume maybe history channel maybe someone does maybe some kids will actually like to see ancient aliens and the different shows that we have there but, maybe they experience things maybe there's people that don't watch tv now now there's a lot of people that doesn't actually watch tv you won't see them watching the news or and or seeing the but maybe they love games and they play a lot of games me personally i used to play a lot of games because that was my safe space right because of all the things that i've been through and the things that i experienced in fantasy or in games you see situations similar to the things that you that happen to you so in my case it was a safe place so i want to give that safe place to people having different experiences and being able to show that on that way, right?
Speaker1:
[1:56:11] No, it makes a lot of sense, and it's a very wise way, I think, of approaching it with just being open to lots of different people's points of view. But I bet a lot you're going to get people who play this, and you'll have folks that are saying, like, oh my god, this is exactly what happened to me. And finally I have this way of dealing with it or seeing it through someone
Speaker1:
[1:56:34] else's eyes, like I'm not alone in this. You'll probably also have folks who you know criticize it to hell and say like no it doesn't work like this and all that that kind of thing but i imagine you're gonna get a lot of goodwill you know you're gonna get a lot of people who are like this maybe they had like a repressed memory that this like brought back to them they're like oh my this did happen to me but i shut it out a long time ago and i haven't thought about it in 30 years or whatever um that's the power of you know telling stories is that you hopefully you can kind of reach people like like we talked about earlier like on their emotional level you know meet them meet them where they're at um and help them dissect whatever it is that they're dealing with even if they're a complete skeptic never had an experience in their life but like maybe maybe playing this would help them understand like oh this is this is what other people are going through um and have some empathy for that Yeah,
Speaker0:
[1:57:27] Totally. And like I said, we are not experts in anything, right? We are not experts on Unreal. We are not experts on the phenomena. We won't claim that. We are just trying to help. We are just trying to set up our point of view and our experiences. Let people be able to see those experiences. Maybe we are not the best on creating a visual effect, but the idea is that the feelings that you get from that are real and the feelings that you can get from that and maybe it's a good way and lets you explain yourself, right? Right.
Speaker0:
[1:58:12] There's no better way to explain something that you feel than having a visual aid on what you are actually feeling. And maybe if we are lucky enough to be able to assist on that, be able to give a tool to people that can say, hey, if you want to understand how I feel, you can see this, right? You don't even have to play the game or see the game, Just read a little or just get in touch with it, get close to the actual situation, and maybe there's someone that's struggling to express all these situations that happen to them and they don't have an actual way to do it. As you said, games in general always provide the fantasy aspect, or alien games, there's always this short story that happens in this short specific place, in this specific scenario, in this specific cornfield, but things happen in life all the time. You can be sitting around in a water park, riding a slide and having fun while something is happening to you at the same time, right?
Speaker0:
[1:59:34] So I feel like the idea here is providing while using the classic and some of the classic common places. Because the game has like seven stages and they're all different. It's not just a cabin. It's not just a farm. You're not just in a secluded mountain watching the lights on the sky. There's a lot of things that are going to be involved and it's also to... So you can see the variety of things that can actually happen and the variety of situations that you can actually experience, right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker1:
[2:00:15] Yeah. Do you... Do you really talk with your family about what you're doing with the game? And do they seem to like it, understand it, care?
Speaker0:
[2:00:32] Not really. I mean, I always talk with my mother. She's always proud as a mother. But she doesn't really understand how big the situation is. I mean I can say to her hey I'm talking with this research she even, is in several history channel episodes talking about Latin American situations and she says oh okay I'm proud but that's it, even my closest friends they see I'm making a game or trying to create this experience, but they don't really actually see to actually see, right? Like you're using actual research. This is real. What we are not trying to believe, right? I feel like there's like this veil on in general, like when you start talking about certain topics or certain situations.
Speaker0:
[2:01:40] People just take things slightly or slightly more than they should. And they won't always actually care about what you are talking. Maybe they are saying something that is really important, and at the moment they won't know because it's not how they want to experience life or how they experience life, so it's totally okay. I mean, not everyone will see things in the same way that you see things. Even though as a game designer you are trying to create something for people, for everyone to see the same, right? But you know that not everyone will see the same. As you said, you're going to have different opinions. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people that will hate what we're doing. There's going to be a lot of people that may like or even love what we're doing. But that's part of the situations that we get into when we start to express ourselves, right? Yep.
Speaker1:
[2:02:39] Yeah, if you don't have haters, you're not doing it right, in my opinion. You gotta you gotta break a few eggs if you want to make an omelet so yeah um that is it's just so so fucking fascinating like the whole concept of of this project in particular like like having like real expert researchers on to like help you dissect it and make it make it more realistic but also like representing a lot of different points of views and a lot of different experiences and stuff. It's like, it's very wise. And like i keep saying there's just nothing else like that um that i'm aware of and there there are movies that try to do it and of course there are going to be like your kind of documentaries and they're mostly going to be indie and stuff like that like not not getting a lot of popularity so i mean have you have you really thought about like the business end of the game design is this is your guys this is your studio's first game yeah
Speaker0:
[2:03:37] These are our first.
Speaker1:
[2:03:38] Published any other games before?
Speaker0:
[2:03:41] No, we actually... The first game that we started with was this horror game that is set on Argentina in Buenos Aires about the actual urban legends that are here. Actually, we wanted to use a parapsychologist. The whole idea is that there will be a parapsychologist understanding his patients and his patients will be telling him the actual paranormal situations that happened to him. This is something that we only did a demo on HIO, just taking one of the stories that is on the subway in Argentina.
Speaker0:
[2:04:22] And then the only finished game that we made is the actual story of Amanda, the night before she disappeared. We made a prequel for a game jam, just a really small game of what happened to her, but it's because we were just experimenting and learning right so this will be the actual uh the actual big game in a way of saying and that we never expected to be this week to begin with i mean when we started doing this even though we had a good feeling that this is something that could be good, we didn't know that we won that the same horror game jam when we we made it and the game was horrible. Actually, for real, I mean, the characters barely moved because we had no idea how to do things, how to animate things. We were just learning.
Speaker0:
[2:05:16] But, of course, the atmosphere and the psychological aspect was there, so I think that helped us. And people were getting involved with us, right? Like the voice actors, the first voice actor, she actually loved the game and approached me. She wasn't even a voice actor, but she said, hey, if you need something, you need someone, just come with me. And they got on board.
Speaker0:
[2:05:42] And even the best gift you can give to someone, that is time. Time is really precious. And gifting that to us, it's like a lot. And I'm seeing all that happened to us since we began with this because we were not thinking, like you said, like the actual economical aspect or the actual situation of, hey, we're going to make, let's make something that makes a lot of money. We were not thinking about that.
Speaker0:
[2:06:13] I mean, there's always this belief that nowadays when you create horror, or there's a lot of Hindi horror games that actually look things in the way that are more lucrative. Maybe that's why there's a lot of games about jumpscares and a lot of that, but we were thinking, let's make something real that feels real for us. I'm a huge Titan Hill fan, right? So I'm trying to create something that is really deep and not something that is said on that side of course we have to think about that because if you don't think about marketing if you don't think you can make a free game and that's it of course we actually need to eat of course our dream will be now after everything that we went through it's of course been an actual studio that we can actually We started with this, but we still have that other game that we want to have a parapsychologist advisor also and work with actual real paranormal investigation and start all the narrative background that we have, right?
Speaker0:
[2:07:21] Um but we learn about that like in the middle right because we won that then these people was getting on board then we were selected for stuff last year uh there's a big event here in argentina uh that's called eva and there's a lot of publishers even critical reflex was here as as well and there's a lot of people getting involved and they did this mentorship. They do this mentorship every year and they selected us for this mentorship as well. We were one of the few 10 to 12 studios that were selected for mentorship so we can shape the game better and understand things better and that helped us a lot. We also were nominated for Best Narrative on that event. Against Star Trek. So Star Trek won on that one.
Speaker1:
[2:08:20] That's pretty epic. Yeah.
Speaker0:
[2:08:24] Yeah. I mean, being nominated, we knew that we are competing against this huge IEP with this huge narrative with this huge universe that Star Trek is, right? But being there is just amazing for us and also help us believe that this is something that we can work with and we can dream and that we can make true. It's a dream that we can make true. So we had to learn a lot about the business aspects right now. We are doing a lot of effort on working more on the studio itself because we know that if we want to do things right, there's things we're going to need, right? We can't escape that. No artist can escape that unless, I mean, if you want to live out of your art, you need to do something else, as we do. I mean, we all have different jobs that we do daily to actually eat, but if you actually want to use all that time to create And to have that child that is your game, your creation, your song, anything, you need to do something more. So we had to start thinking about that part as well.
Speaker1:
[2:09:46] Yeah, it's a lot to take in. If there's anything at all I can do to be helpful. I mean, I've been involved in a lot of games being published and marketed and such, so I'm happy to be of assistance. It's good that you're in the Fearzine Discord because they're doing a great job. I work with Maria and Dan really closely, and they're fucking really, really good at doing the social media stuff. And like uh they're they're doing these sort of like if if you get in on the kickstarter for one of their issues as a as a developer that they'll give you ad space or whatever and and hopefully continue to find better ways to monetize and reach more people with it but just having that core group of like everyone in this space is interested in either making or playing horror games is it makes a huge help but yeah reaching as many people who would be interested as possible it's always going to be the toughest part aside from making the game actually happen and also getting people to know that it exists
Speaker0:
[2:10:50] Yeah it's funny because the funny thing is that here in Argentina most people doesn't know about us we are known more in Europe and the US than in Argentina and it's our country right, and it's also funny because also along the way like you said fear scene is one of the best things that happened to horror lately. The Horror Game Awards, Phil and Wheeler doing a great job with that as well. I was able to connect with some streamers from the CEOs of Screams.
Speaker0:
[2:11:23] That are amazing people and they all like i said before time is the most valuable thing you can give to someone and just having people that sit with you and tell you hey you're not doing this from our lens this is this can be better if you do this or i don't know streamers play a lot of games and they have their own opinion besides the actual show right um we had a uh like a little roundtable horror roundtable with two streamers um back in 2024 january or 2023 i don't remember that's sasen sumi uh captain sumi um about horror right because i wanted to understand starting with this uh with all the gaming industry all the horror right because like i said i come from the movies side, I never did anything like this. So I needed to understand how people feel, needed to speak with the chat, needed to expose myself. I mean, I'm not a public person, like I go to interviews all the time, but I felt that I needed to expose myself because I haven't seen many developers do that as well.
Speaker0:
[2:12:41] There's a human side behind the gaming that most people forget about, like you like separating the art from the artist but the artist is there and the artist wants to know also how you feel about what you are playing because in the end.
Speaker0:
[2:12:59] We are also doing this for you the gamer we are doing this you do this podcast for the people that listen and want to learn more and want to experience more.
Speaker0:
[2:13:14] Sometimes there's people that has this secret side of them that there's things that they want to learn or want to know, but they have this fear of letting other people know. Just in case they don't think you're crazy. But then you have these spaces. You have music, you have movies, books, podcasts now. The podcasts are a great tool right now in our current era, right? And people sometimes disregard that, but it's a great company. And I see how people react to different podcasts like this one, for example. That's great. We have the ones from the Horror Game Awards. Now Fear Scene is doing also their work too. And there's also different point of views that are great and connected with everyone. Me being from Argentina means a lot because we don't actually, there's a lot of fear sometimes of, hey, this is an unreachable person, right? Like, okay, they are in the States, they are in Europe. Why they will care about someone that's in this little country in South America that not many people knows about? Well, Argentina is being known for many things right now, and the Nazi era and stuff, something that we will be talking about in our game as well.
Speaker0:
[2:14:30] But all these things that are triggers sometimes, right, because they feel, and we feel sometimes as Argentinians that not many people like us because of the common knowledge. Sometimes the common knowledge is that Argentina, the Argentinian people in South America, they feel that they are better than the others, than other people. There's a lot of things that revolves around different cultures or different societies. Like the U.S. have their own, like Europe, Germany, the U.K. Everyone has different beliefs, right? But in the end, we're humans or hybrids sometimes. And we are trying to actually connect with others and being able to be open to connect with others and seeing that the other person is actually someone like you.
Speaker0:
[2:15:17] And maybe that person you connect with has some similarities with you and have things that they want to talk about. And you have something that you want to talk about and it's the same.
Speaker0:
[2:15:30] And you realize that when you actually start to interact with people, right? In Discord, on streams, if you're a developer, this is for developers, if you're a developer, just sit and talk with that streamer that you like or chat with the people in chat, right? Don't be afraid of what they are going to say sometimes you will see that there's incredible people around that are trying to help the indie community the horror community that's even.
Speaker0:
[2:16:00] Sometimes i met a lot of people that doesn't feel horror is good because there's a lot of horror games there's a lot of crap out there of course yes like it happens with anything right there's going to be real people that wants to provide you a real experience and there's going to be people that are just trying to monetize something and they try right and of course you it's difficult to, to get that needle uh right that that thing that it's out there but there's a lot of help right now, and over the years i feel that this past two to three years it's been really good for the for the indie community right um like this that happened right now with us right being able to see your podcast on fear scene um being able to be here and now just talking and having a nice time while doing this right it's a it's a great opportunity and it's great i think yeah.
Speaker1:
[2:17:03] It's something about you know why do people like indie games like why are the you know why is there like hashtag indie game every day and like that part of it is it's it especially on social media it's a it's an echo chamber of other people who are also making indie games putting their you know look at my indie game and like all the responses are from other people who are also making an indie game and it's like a little bit thing but the customers like the people who love playing buying indie games there's multiple reasons why one of them is because it's cheaper i mean that's it makes a huge difference. The other part is that they feel like they're part of it with you, and if they can have that personal connection with the developer and get the game that's like
Speaker1:
[2:17:46] Not you know it's not the game that was made for the masses like everyone in the world you know trying to capture what they would like that you know like near disney levels of reaching every audience you can but you know something that feels like it was made for me you know like oh this this feels like exactly the game there's a few games like that for me i mean some of them have been triple a but most of them are going to be like my friend mk schmidt like oh my god when you made star explorers that was like the perfect game for me it's like i felt like someone made it exactly what i wanted to play that day or something you know something like that but you know even things like you're talking about doing interviews doing podcasts putting yourself out there i really at least in my own personal experience like i really gravitate towards things that i feel like i have a personal relationship with like so if i'm even if it's like i'm listening to a three hour long interview of somebody on Joe Rogan talking about, I don't know, just getting rid of factory farming and being more environmentally friendly or whatever. Like, I'm far more likely to care about what that person's doing if I can hear them having a conversation and hear them being human, as opposed to just being like,
Speaker1:
[2:18:59] So something that doesn't really care or even aware of my existence, you know, or, or inhuman in any way, this, this is a common strategy in social media marketing is that like people don't really like to interact with just a company, you know, when it's just, you know, Wendy's hamburgers or whatever, like they, they put the jokes in there and shit because it makes it feel more human and people interact with it that, you know, with more, if you're, if you're doing your game studios, Twitter page or Facebook page or whatever, it's not, It's not like people want to be friends with a company. They want to be friends with the people behind the thing. And just kind of taking that veil back and letting people in is good. Could also be a little dangerous. You might have the... If you get too good at this UFO thing, you might have some men in black, you know, coming and knocking on the door or whatever. Hey, shut the fuck up. Cancel this game. What's the budget you guys are working with? Are you paying the bills with this thing? Or you got, like, a grant? What's going on with that?
Speaker0:
[2:20:00] No, it's just our heart and our hard work. Yeah, we don't have any budget, really. For now, we are just on the look, basically, trying to work with this, trying to see if maybe eventually we can do something else, something extra that can help us get better. Because the funny thing is that actually the artists work with a 4GB RAM notebook, right?
Speaker0:
[2:20:34] Our own team can't even play the game because they don't have the computers to play the game. So we're trying just to do things in the best way that we can. That's why we are using Unreal 4.27. We're not using even Unreal 5. there's a lot of things.
Speaker0:
[2:20:56] Revolving around Unreal 5 games right now, also about the performance and about a lot of things. We're just using Unreal 4.25 because that's the actual engine that runs on our PCs, right? So far right now. So, yeah, the budget is what we have. Basically, we don't even start making or working on marketing. We are starting doing that. We are starting to receive more help from people that knows better about the industry, and that are trying to lead us on the right way so we can actually start better conversations, so we can actually have our pitch can work better. I mean, we always joke about that if we have the actual power on our computers to do the things that we want, we can be unstoppable because we have the knowledge, we know how to do things, We know how to try and break things as well, but we just don't have the power right now. So, yeah, basically it's just for now it's with what we have and working towards showing people that we can actually do good with these things that we have. And maybe if we can get different help, we can be even better and we can show
Speaker0:
[2:22:16] other things in a better way, right? But for now it's just our hard effort and our sweat.
Speaker1:
[2:22:23] You should you should put together like a even if it's not like a funding the game but just like a budget for what you need hardware wise and see if somebody's willing to cover it i mean whether that be a you may get a publisher right who doesn't have the money to like give you five hundred thousand dollars or whatever to finish the game but they might be like but we could give you three grand to buy some new notebooks or whatever and and help you market it you don't know there's all there's all kinds of options out there a lot of snakes in that grass too but having someone to help you with marketing and like porting to consoles and language translations QA I mean you guys will probably have at least Latin American Spanish covered but you know what I mean like reaching as fast of an audience as you can that's it's really helpful but yeah
Speaker0:
[2:23:15] Yeah we were up into all of that yeah.
Speaker1:
[2:23:17] Yeah, I mean, you don't know How many Members do you have on the team?
Speaker0:
[2:23:24] Right now we are Seven We shifted a little bit There's new members because we just recently got An animator, Yes, seven, eight I have to think, Yight We are eight right now.
Speaker1:
[2:23:48] Yeah, you should at least put together a little pitch deck with a budget for what you need hardware-wise to make the game happen the way you want it to. I think you would probably get people who are willing to help, even if you have to crowdsource it. Like, you know, if a hundred different people give you $10 a piece, you could probably buy a nice laptop, whatever.
Speaker0:
[2:24:09] Yeah yeah we were trying to see all the all the options but like i said we were we're learning about these huge universities and we encounter ourselves seeing those the many tools that you have and there's people using paypal there's people using coffee even we don't have a coffee page but we we were starting to learn how to market that right like what's the best way because we don't want to see ourselves like we are trying to steal something out of people. So it's always when you start doing the crowdfunding or doing the pitch decks, trying to set all the numbers. I mean, numbers is a big thing for me because I never loved mathematics or economics or trying to have to sit myself going through Excel sheets, right? So we are getting good at it right now. We have a pitch deck, and I think we polished it enough. But yeah, as you said, we never thought about having actually a pitch deck which actually shows the minimal need there, right? That maybe that can help us trigger something or start that fire, right?
Speaker1:
[2:25:19] Yeah, man, put something together. It doesn't have to be super complicated, even if it's just like a spreadsheet or whatever. Send it to me, and I'll help you try to get it in front of some different folks
Speaker1:
[2:25:28] who might be interested. You don't i mean there might be just some fucking you know fairly wealthy guy who really likes ufos or had an experience himself is like i got 10 grand i want to see this happen i've seen a lot of weird stuff with it you know for a while call us ragnar had we had we have a patreon page for the game and we had one dude that was like just giving us like a thousand dollars a month and i we were like are you sure like are you dying are you okay and he's just like no i just have a lot of money and I like this so I thought I would donate to the cause i'm like all right as long as you're not going broke or anything man like because you know to to you and me a thousand dollars is a lot of money but to this guy it was like ah spend that on wine on a tuesday whatever um you don't know but yeah i'd love to kind of see what the numbers look like and try to help you figure out who and and what what what ways to make that happen.
Speaker1:
[2:26:27] I have most of my experiences in marketing and production. Obviously, I have In the Keep and our games that we're working on and everything, but I've worked for 3D Realms for a couple years too and got to really get a little too close to the flame for my taste of what it's like to deal with corporate money. When you're spending someone else's money, it's very different than when you're spending your own money.
Speaker1:
[2:26:50] That can go a lot of different ways. Yeah, it was cool just to have the opportunity to see at the larger scale how these situations get dealt with. How do you manage a 60-person development team? How do you market a game that needs to make back, I don't know, $7 million or whatever to even break even and that kind of stuff. And like it also like having to do the hard stuff like tell someone like hey we're not going to continue to fund your game because it's not going anywhere or it's not you know it's it's not right for our brand or whatever that kind of thing so i it's interesting now after i after i left europe came back to the states and i'm exclusively running my own company i'm always going to do this podcast but like the indie development side of things i have so much experience with receiving pitch decks and like giving advice to people and then on the other end of the scale i had no experience in having to ask a publisher for money like i know what it's like to be the publisher who decides who gives people money but like never been on the other end of it um so it's good information for me to have obviously but it's also like you you're like a fish out of water kind of thing but i love it man i wouldn't trade this for anything i'm very happy doing what we're doing now and
Speaker0:
[2:28:12] That's the best.
Speaker1:
[2:28:13] Always i mentioned to you like after after sailor valkyrie is done i think i'm gonna jump into your side of the pool play around with some of this uh this scary thinky psychological stuff too and it's great to have feel like fear zine they're really great partners those guys are great um but networking is everything dude like is reaching as many people as you can getting your message out there hopefully this helps some It's not the biggest podcast in the world, but maybe somebody important will hear it. Maybe somebody listening to this will be like, I could buy you a laptop. I don't know. I like this guy. He seems nice. Poor dude. He was haunted by a shadow person for years. He deserves a laptop.
Speaker0:
[2:28:54] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And networking is like the main thing for us. And for me, I've learned over the years that getting close to people, it's actually because you're going to learn a lot of things. I mean, over these past two years, being an indie developer, I've learned a lot. And there's a lot of amazing people out there, like you mentioned, that you can learn from. And I mean I can't be more than thankful for having this space here being able to freely speak about my experiences and the development of the game and having, that help or your point of view it's really helpful and it's really appreciated and you have no idea how really appreciated that is for me to hearing this and having that help from you and having this space it's huge in ways uh i i will never be able to explain on on words right.
Speaker1:
[2:29:57] Nah it's okay man it's fun for me too and also like people have definitely helped me out and done me favors and stuff and i'm just paying it forward like what the universe is kind of moving in that direction i think like i don't i don't think much of it i enjoy having these conversations and i enjoy helping people it it makes me better and the more people that i'm helping like in this case it's like if i'm helping you find a publishing deal might help me find a publishing deal i don't know like it you never know who you're gonna end up talking to like i didn't think that being uh posting my fucking weird paranormal investigator podcast in a horror game community was necessarily going to lead to this conversation but it did and that's okay that's that's good yeah Yeah, let's go ahead and wrap this bad boy up. Like I said, if you have anything that I can help you with, definitely send me some numbers or a pitch deck or a spreadsheet, and I'll help you get that out there as much as I can. And good luck with everything I'll be following along. And yeah, don't fuck with Ouija boards, kids.
Speaker0:
[2:31:05] No, never do that. And thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Speaker1:
[2:31:11] Yeah, yeah. I'll see you next time. Thank you so much to Diego for being a part of the show.
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Speaker1:
[2:31:22] It was really, really cool to dive into all that with them and to check out the game. Go grab the demo right now for Who Are You on Steam and let them know what you think. Join the Discord and all that stuff. You could also join the In the Keep Discord, follow along with everything we're doing there. That'd be great, or any of our social medias. we're big mostly using x but you know i think we're on blue sky and have a linkedin that kind of stuff thank you to all of our wonderful supporters on patreon y'all are amazing and i could not be doing this without y'all gonna be rolling out some new ways to support here pretty soon but the best way you can support is to go tell a friend how much you love the show if this episode uh really spoke to you and you want to know more i highly recommend going back in the catalog a couple weeks and checking out the recent stuff we did with Barry Fitzgerald and also Steve Amara. That's what actually connected me with Diego was posting about those episodes and kind of how that related to his research. We referenced it a lot in this discussion so if you haven't already heard those, definitely recommend them. I think that's it for now, but until next time, I love you. God love you. Stay. In the keep.
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